Keir Starmer aka Captain Flip Flop

Freya5

MayBee70

‘Personally, I think it’s unfair to blame the previous goverment for the major cause of inflation in 2022 which was the war on Ukraine - although there are arguments to be made about why the UK is so vulnerable to volatility in the wholesale energy market. This is something Labour is now addressing with GB Energy.’
Isn’t one of the reasons that the previous government got rid of our gas storage facilities ?

Gas storage
The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 following

The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 followinga government decision not to subsidise the costly maintenance and upgrades needed

Freya5

Freya5

MayBee70

‘Personally, I think it’s unfair to blame the previous goverment for the major cause of inflation in 2022 which was the war on Ukraine - although there are arguments to be made about why the UK is so vulnerable to volatility in the wholesale energy market. This is something Labour is now addressing with GB Energy.’
Isn’t one of the reasons that the previous government got rid of our gas storage facilities ?

Gas storage
The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 following

The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 followinga government decision not to subsidise the costly maintenance and upgrades needed

So was shut by Centrica, they didn't want their profits spent on maintenence, would rather it went to shareholders is how I see it.

Mollygo

*Of course we are in a different world, but it seem strange that we are not allowed to criticise a party who impacted negatively on our world now if it’s the Labour Party, whilst LP fans on here are keen to criticise Conservatives, in the recent and more distant past.*

Do I criticise Conservatives? Yes I do. . Brexit was wrong and I voted against it, but at least I voted.
The NHS-definitely, but researching it, the LP evidently didn’t leave it in too good a state either.
COVID-there were a lot of things that were wrong, but no one knows how the Labour Party would have handled it without the benefit of hindsight.

Mostly it was the dishonesty that was wrong. For example, saying what people should not do, then doing it themselves.

There are dishonest politicians in the all parties.

*Think of Starmer’s dishonesty in demanding that Sunak withdraw his decision to remove WFA to fill a black hole, then deciding to do exactly that using the same reason, a few months later.
(And being excused by LP supporters ^because it wasn’t in his manifesto^)* 🤣🤣🤣

.
But then GB’s actions only affected a minority so those it affected don’t matter if you’re looking at the wider picture.

The same way as the Labour Party’s decision on WFA will only affect a minority so it doesn’t matter.

I don’t think that things don’t matter if they only affect a small number of people. I think, however, that constant harping on at what was done by someone who has not had office for years is pointless. Our choice was between Sunak and Starmer, not between Brown and Cameron.

I think the point is that GB’s tax grab on pension pots is affecting people now and for the rest of their lives, despite the fact that GB made that decision years ago. His decision is affecting people now. Those people affected may well feel bad about that, however long ago it happened because they are living with the consequences now.

Yes, GB did affect me too: yes I have less than I would have:

it totally pales in comparison for me and my life and millions of others with what's happening to the NHS and the care system and many other areas of life because of Austerity.

Exactly, Wyllow.

I’m not minimising it - I live with it. But that doesn’t explain my point, which is being ignored. It was a policy (a poor one IMO) brought in by someone who is not serving now. Even if GB were serving, who can say (particularly if they have had a professional career involving complex decisions) that they always got everything right?

The current government is made up of different people, we live in a different world and there are different priorities. I don’t understand the harking back. It’s not Harold McMillan who puts me off voting Conservative 😀

maddyone

I think the point is that GB’s tax grab on pension pots is affecting people now and for the rest of their lives, despite the fact that GB made that decision years ago. His decision is affecting people now. Those people affected may well feel bad about that, however long ago it happened because they are living with the consequences now.

I think the point is that GB’s tax grab on pension pots is affecting people now and for the rest of their lives, despite the fact that GB made that decision years ago. His decision is affecting people now. Those people affected may well feel bad about that, however long ago it happened because they are living with the consequences now.

maddyone is right.

These fiscal decisions taken by successive Chancellors can have long-lasting effects and quite understandably those affected will feel a lingering bitterness.

The move-on-it-happened-a-long-time-ago strategy doesn't work so easily when someone's future plans have been affected by events that were completely outside their own control.

But this is an eternal problem, whichever government we are under. Both Labour and Tory governments have made policy decisions which have affected various sections of society at some point.

And the reason for this is because, basically, our society - our economy - is run for the benefit of the wealthy elite, and the rest of us, even those who are comparatively rich, are the exploited and manipulated other-half who are maintaining the status quo. In simple terms, that is how Capitalism works. And whichever government is in power, however they engineer the economy by tweaks here or there, they are still operating under the same system which means that economic crises are outside our control.

And if a party leader comes along and says he wants to run the country for the many not the few - the electorate throws up its hands in horror claiming he will bankrupt the country by driving the wealthy elite out of the country who will up sticks and leave.

So here we are with a Labour party determined to make things 'fairer' for everyone - distancing itself from both Tory free-market libertarianism on the one hand, and Corbyn's 'Marxism' on the other.

Why is the country in such a mess? Why is our NHS in such a terrible state and our public services underfunded, under-staffed and failing? Why are the impoverished pensioners, the sick and the disabled the ones who are going to pay the price for these economic crises? We've had 14 years of Austerity and spending cuts, and now we have Starmer's Labour party in the unenviable position of trying to address these huge economic problems.

He's in an impossible position because he's appeased both the hares and the hounds in order to win the election. And now he has to 'deliver'. The problem is that the interests of the hounds are diametrically opposed to those of the hares.

Growing the economy will ultimately benefit everyone to some degree - but the problem is, it will take a long time to do that and the majority of us will not see any improvement in our lives any time soon.

I lived and worked in Norway for some 12 years. They have a robust economy based on Capitalist principles. However, the government ideology is very much invested in its people - its education, its work-life balance, its health service, its welfare. Though very far from perfect, it is committed in principle to work for everyone, not only the wealthy elite.

But we are not up for that. We have the collective belief that the Tories are the only ones who can run our economy and that any move to change the dynamics will force the movers and shakers to decamp. So Starmer will have little choice other than to, basically, continue where the Tories left off though, hopefully, with less incompetence and less self-interest of his MPs. I acknowledge the fire-fighting he's done so far, especially the way he and the government have taken control over the rioting.

But I think it will take many years before we see any real change.

PS Just to be clear, I'm not recommending 'Corbynomics' - simply trying to be objective about our political system - I didn't vote for him. I just think that real change is impossible under the status-quo.

Wyllow3

Yes, GB did affect me too: yes I have less than I would have:

it totally pales in comparison for me and my life and millions of others with what's happening to the NHS and the care system and many other areas of life because of Austerity.

Bringing everything down to what affects us personally seems to lack any consideration of the wider implications.

I agree with your analysis Dickens.

Iam64

Wyllow3

Yes, GB did affect me too: yes I have less than I would have:

it totally pales in comparison for me and my life and millions of others with what's happening to the NHS and the care system and many other areas of life because of Austerity.

Bringing everything down to what affects us personally seems to lack any consideration of the wider implications.

But isn't bringing everything down to 'what affects me' one of the principles that Margaret Thatcher worked on? She appealed to individual interests. "There is no such thing as society, just individuals"

It worked, didn't it?

There is no answer to those who reject any blame on Labour, whether now or in the past.
I love the there are different priorities comment.
Pensioners certainly weren’t a priority last Labour government, nor in the last Conservative government.
This time, the very blow to pensioners that was ridiculed by Starmer when in opposition, is one of his first actions once in power.
And yes, I know it only affects a minority
and it’s important to look at the wider picture and
it totally pales in comparison. . . with what's happening to the NHS and the care system and many other areas of life because of Austerity.

It’s the same argument/excuse that the LP will use, every time things don’t go according to plan, or they’ve run out of ways to attack those whose votes they don’t consider as important.

Do you honestly think that the government wants to attack pensioners? I don’t. I agree that pensioners are not being prioritised as Tories prioritised them, but that’s not the same thing.

Young people (less likely to vote Tory?) have had a very rough time over the past 14 years, and there is definitely a case for levelling up. I’m not defending the withdrawal of the WFP. I’ve said several times that I think it was a mistake. But if there were a choice between cutting that and reducing child benefit, say, it would take the judgment of Solomon to decide which to choose.

I don't know why Labour made this decision and made it so soon after taking office. I’m not happy with it along with most people. But I voted for Labour because I believe that they want to make this country a better place for everyone and until it proves to be not the case I will assume that they have other plans that will improve our lives in other ways. I’m not assuming that it will happen overnight which is why I’m so angry about things like eg petitions to get Keir Starmer removed from office. And another reason why I want the opposition to get their act together and hopefully choose a good leader (albeit not feeling inspired by the current candidates) because we need a strong opposition.

Good post, Dickens 👏

This time, the very blow to pensioners that was ridiculed by Starmer when in opposition, is one of his first actions once in power.

Yes a good post.

and yes MayBee70 we need a good opposition to represent those unhappy with the government, to deal with issues as they came up, present alternatives/amendments instead of this ludicrous social media centred snipes and petitions when this government has only been in position for such a short time.

I think there is a real danger from those who seek not just to criticise the current government,

but to de-stabilise our democracy and the way it works - which is through due process not attacks by tweets and provocative disinformation as we saw during the riots.

I look forward to the return of parliament when a series of specific law-making and the budget gives us grounds to debate issues as they come up.

Mollygo

^This time, the very blow to pensioners that was ridiculed by Starmer when in opposition, is one of his first actions once in power.^

We looked at that on page 8, when it was revealed and references given by Merion that Starmer made remarks in 2022 when the fuel situation was in absolute crisis re winter fuel and not subsequently.

That's a good point, Wyllow. I think the timing of the election, which has meant that the new government has come to power when PMQs is not happening hasn't helped.

It won't be long now until things get back to normal.

Do you mean misinformation such as
Biden is fine
Men are women
Its damaging to Huw Edward's mental health to talk about safeguarding.
Does any of that destabilise democracy/society.
If it's a choice between any of them and a daft petition, I think I would choose the petition.

Twinnytwin
Your reply made me chuckle , agree it has been quiet. Happygardener you didn’t deserve such negativity. ‘Don’t believe Facebook was one 🙈🙈 she’d already said it was a video of a KS interview

Galaxy

Do you mean misinformation such as
Biden is fine
Men are women
Its damaging to Huw Edward's mental health to talk about safeguarding.
Does any of that destabilise democracy/society.
If it's a choice between any of them and a daft petition, I think I would choose the petition.

I mean disinformation such as that spread on the day of the Southport Riots,

Broad claims that Starmer is going to "take away all our freedoms" just because Starmer says that "we need to review" whether to take any action on social media following the riots.
and suggestions that in schools students are taught to be able to critique and make there own minds up about social media information (this has long been in discussion in order to protect young people).

Constant streams of racism in SM as in Islamophobia which stir up hatred amongst our own population, matters of this order.

Constant predictions that our society is "breaking down" or close to "civil war" to make people fearful and foster mistrust in any democratic government. Lies and half truths abound.

I’m another who thinks the response from Dickens was good and I agree with her.
Neither myself nor Mr M was affected by GB’s tax grab on pension pots, so I have no axe to grind there, but I do feel for those who are affected, basically ordinary people who did not pay into a public pension ( as I did, and now receive a teacher’s pension) but instead paid into a private pension, and many of these people are by no means wealthy.

With regard to the NHS I agree with Iam that the run down of the health service has affected millions, including myself, and the pension pot tax grab does pale into insignificance compared with that, but that presumably is because it doesn’t affect me. I’m one of the seven and a half million who is on an NHS waiting list, and even more annoying than that is the ridiculous number of hoops I had to jump through in order to get even a diagnosis, whereby I could even go on a waiting list. It took an entire year to get a diagnosis , during which time I was sent from pillar to post, seeing different specialists and physiotherapists and other medics, when the diagnosis tool that was staring everyone in the face was denied to me ie an MRI scan. Even then I had to go back to a physiotherapist to have the scan interpreted, which he didn’t actually do correctly, but he did send me on to the spinal team, which was where I needed to be all along, but was denied access to because I had to jump through the other hoops first. If this happened to me, I dread to think how many other people have had to play these ridiculous games before they could get on to the appropriate waiting list. And these pathways have been designed in my humble opinion, in order to keep people off the waiting list that they need to be on. And how it saves money is anyone’s guess, I think it must cost more money, but so long as people are sent running from pillar to post searching for the correct treatment, they are not on a waiting list.

This is my expectation of our new government. They must improve the NHS so that people can access the correct care more quickly. It will take time, but it is my expectation. They have five years to do something about it, and they need to get on with it immediately, because people are suffering now.

Totally agree maddyone -top priority, my GD who is seriously disabled is waiting for an operation which is to straighten her legs and the older she gets the less impact it will have. children in desperate need of CAMHS care on waiting lists at a crucial time in their lives.

If you have institutions that deliver the lies mentioned in my post, then dont be surprised when people look elsewhere for information.
We cant just get cross about the lies we dont like.

Wyllow3

Totally agree maddyone -top priority, my GD who is seriously disabled is waiting for an operation which is to straighten her legs and the older she gets the less impact it will have. children in desperate need of CAMHS care on waiting lists at a crucial time in their lives.

Wyllow3

for your GD.

I hope she doesn't have to wait much longer.

It should never have come to this...