Keir Starmer aka Captain Flip Flop

Baggs

I think your point of view is perfectly reasonable, casdon. I am only putting forward an argument that I’ve heard being used to justify universal payments. It’s not something I hold close to my heart; I just think it also sounds reasonable.

I understand Baggs, I’ve seen a case for universal benefits being made before too. Perhaps I’m more (small c) conservative than I realised!

Mollygo

^We’ve only heard part A of the plan, aka the removal of the universal benefit. There will be a part B.^

To any rational person, publishing the Part B you mention (if they’ve worked it out yet), at the same time as Part A would save a lot of heartache and upset.

Casdon you miss the point. The reports, wherever they come from show Starmer saying he is anti removal of the winter fuel payment when in opposition and for it when he is in charge?

It isn’t reported in writing in some dubious newspaper or social media site. It is actual video clips of Starmer saying it.

I do think there should have reassurance that there will be a part B Mollygo, rather than just a reminder to check eligibility for pension credit. We know there will be, but it would have reassured people if it was specifically said.

I didn’t miss the point, but I’m not bothered about pre-election statements being broken if they weren’t in the manifesto, because when any government comes into power it finds out issues it wasn’t aware of before and retracts them. It’s what they commit to in their manifesto being delivered that matters, because that’s what people vote for. This isn’t a Labour peculiarity, all governments do it?

I think your point of view is perfectly reasonable, casdon. I am only putting forward an argument that I’ve heard being used to justify universal payments. It’s not something I hold close to my heart; I just think it also sounds reasonable.

Doodledog

*Yes Galaxy, you are not allowed to criticise the new government at all. Follow that rule and you’ll be okay.*

Seriously, maddie? For the past few weeks GN has been all about criticising the Labour Party before the election, and the government since it won. Yes, there are those who disagree, but nobody is not 'allowing' anything.

I did not mean that literally Doodledog, but I’m sure you know that, and I’m sure that the post I was responding to was not meant literally either.

However I do mean that posters expressing any doubt or negativity about our new government has been treated to what others call a pile on and what I would call hostility. This thread alone is a perfect example of what I’m saying, and it’s most unpleasant in my view.

Someone has managed to get a poster banned who expressed a more right wing view. I thought it good to have different views reflected on here, but someone else thought not!

I am Gandhi

This thread is a perfect example of how division works. Someone (sorry, *HG - this applies to your OP, not to you personally) posts inflammatory content with cliches and slogans designed by others to inflame.
*People take issue and criticise.
*Others then criticise the critics and make generalisations, adding in accusations of censorship.
*The accused defend themselves and gain support from like-minded people.
*Sides are formed and line up on opposite sides, attacking one another, and the issue is forgotten. People are now talking about who is 'allowed'(?) to say what on GN, not the WFP, which we've done to death anyway.

We don't have to let it happen.

He does flip and flop does he know what a woman is yet?

maddyone 👏👏👏

Up to now there has only been a Conservative Government since I have been on GN.

I am a Conservative, I have read thread after thread, post after post ridiculing, name calling and downright bullying from those who were/are not Conservatives directed towards the party I voted for, and in a lot of cases towards posters who like me admitted to voting Conservative.

Now there is a Labour Government, those supporting/voting for Labour must expect their party to be criticised, no politician or party is exempt from scrutiny…

We’ve only heard part A of the plan, aka the removal of the universal benefit. There will be a part B.

To any rational person, publishing the Part B you mention (if they’ve worked it out yet), at the same time as Part A would save a lot of heartache and upset.

Casdon you miss the point. The reports, wherever they come from show Starmer saying he is anti removal of the winter fuel payment when in opposition and for it when he is in charge?

It isn’t reported in writing in some dubious newspaper or social media site. It is actual video clips of Starmer saying it.

M0nica

As far as I am concernedd -and I have ever never voted Labour - . Keir Starmer stands head and shoulders above the shower he replaced.

As for the withdrawal of the Winter Fuel payment. I agree that the issue has not been handled well and they should have thought about those whose income is just above PC level, but as a confortabley off pensioner I am more than happy to manage with our the WFP and I see no reason why better off pensioners should get it.

I agree

Baggs

*Do you disagree with the removal of WFP from those who can afford to pay for fuel, or just from those who can’t?*

I don't think it's that simple. As I tried to point out in a previous post, finding out who can/can't afford to pay for fuel is not an easy task. There are variables quite apart from income level, such as where someone lives (it's colder up north) and what kind of house they live in, how old they are, what health conditions they have which might affect how warm they need to be, etc.

Re that last, I was reading an article today about someone who has an arthritic condition, needs a warmer house than average, and who says he will really miss the WFA. The thing that struck me though is that in the photograph of him he only appeared to be wearing a T-shirt on his upper half. I need three layers of clothing most of the summer where we live, never mind during the cold months (which, actually, is most of them).

The salient point is that the cost of working out who needs what is usually very expensive so it makes more economic sense to give things like WFA to all older people.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree Baggs, because I just can’t see the justification to give the WFP to everybody. My personal preference would be to raise the personal allowance, and not pay WFP to anybody who has enough income to be required to pay tax. Conversely, at the moment, many of us pay 40% tax on part of our incomes, but still get WFP. That can’t be the best use of the government budgets.

One riposte I heard several times was that it would be more expensive to work out who needed it and who didn't than just to give it to all mothers. I'm talking history here! But I imagine the same argument could be made now with regard to sorting out who actually needs the winter fuel allowance and who doesn't.

This from Baggs. I remember hearing that argument too, and I think it has merit in relation to both the WFP and Child Benefit. I think both payments are significant in that they apply to the extremes of age - remembering why the welfare state was established in the first place, to safeguard the health and welfare of the most vulnerable in society.

I happen to think that a central tenet of a Labour government should be to take care of the youngest and the oldest who cannot provide for themselves. And I really don’t believe that the so called hole in the budget can be best addressed by taking from those who have relatively little, compared to the richest in society.

Well said, maddyone. The outrage pile-ons are very unedifying and they happen quite a lot, especially to less well known posters.

nanna8

Keir Starmer, the animated budgie, is the hero of most on here. Criticise him at your peril!

Agree

I gave my reasons for not wanting to share the OP’s post in my post of 11.45 (in case anybody is interested). I’m not repeating it.

Those of you who are happy for GN to be used as a means of distributing unverified content … that’s up to you.

MayBee, I share your frustration but I would be very sorry to see you leave GN.

A poster said

how dare you to the OP.

That is unacceptable language.

There are one after the other threads where any dissent is criticised. I’ve stayed off many of them. I don’t come on GN to be treated to patronising posts because I don’t necessarily agree with others. Or to be told how dare you, or to be deleted because my view is unacceptable. Neither did TheHappyGardener I imagine.

To those who think the opening post "infammatory".... you could always just ignore it. Isn't that usually regarded as the best way for things not to get inflamed?

MayBee70

Oreo

nightowl

I agree it’s not fair to continue the jibe coined by Johnson, but it’s hardly worth getting in a state about. I’m sure he’s been called worse, and I’m a Labour supporter.

Exactly what I feel.

You’ve done nothing but knock Labour ever since they came to power Oreo…

Errrrr what?
They haven’t been in power long and I have criticised the plan to remove WFA and any plan not to put any British long term resident ahead of newcomers for social housing.
Two policies.Two.
Are you one of those people that just can’t bear your chosen political party to have anything at all critical said about them?

Do you disagree with the removal of WFP from those who can afford to pay for fuel, or just from those who can’t?

I don't think it's that simple. As I tried to point out in a previous post, finding out who can/can't afford to pay for fuel is not an easy task. There are variables quite apart from income level, such as where someone lives (it's colder up north) and what kind of house they live in, how old they are, what health conditions they have which might affect how warm they need to be, etc.

Re that last, I was reading an article today about someone who has an arthritic condition, needs a warmer house than average, and who says he will really miss the WFA. The thing that struck me though is that in the photograph of him he only appeared to be wearing a T-shirt on his upper half. I need three layers of clothing most of the summer where we live, never mind during the cold months (which, actually, is most of them).

The salient point is that the cost of working out who needs what is usually very expensive so it makes more economic sense to give things like WFA to all older people.

TheHappyGardener

Ok - and this before I leave Gransnet for good. I’m an ordinary grandma in my 60s who won’t get my state pension for another 4 years (so never been in receipt of the WFP). I left my relatively well-paid job 4 years ago to look after my mother who has dementia. Two years ago, I had to find alternative part-time work to boost my meagre private pension (meagre because I’d left my job before my pension age). I’m now on just above the minimum wage. This year my husband reached state pension age but between us our earnings are just above the level for pension credit. The winter fuel payment would have been very helpful for us. None of this is really anyone’s business but our’s but I’ve told you to try and explain my reasons for my original post.

I am not ‘naive’, I do have ‘a mind of my own’ and I’m not ‘led like a sheep’. Neither am I rude - which a lot of you Gransnetters are!

I HAVE posted on here before, but mostly I read with interest other people’s posts. I’m truly shocked at your reactions to mine and won’t hang around to read any subsequent replies.

Apologies Happy Gardener.
Am afraid I also had a baptism of fire when I joined recently. But seems that some of us can be quite feisty when it comes to all things political. Is the same on any forum regardless of age.
Tbh you fought your corner so don’t give up now.
X

maddyone

GrannyGravy13

Oreo 👏👏👏

I will not forgive RR and the PM for this cruel act.

I agree GG.

There will be some cold pensioners this winter.

The hostility directed at the OP is unacceptable.

It’s only cruel if there isn’t a mitigation for the people who depend financially on the WFP surely? It’s not cruel to take money off people who don’t need it, and reinvest the savings elsewhere.

I think all this heat is affecting everyone's mood
Please stay everyone. I think it is going to get cooler by Thursday

What ever happened to DillyTheGardener?

This thread reminds me why I don't bother with GN very much.

Yes Galaxy, you are not allowed to criticise the new government at all. Follow that rule and you’ll be okay.

Seriously, maddie? For the past few weeks GN has been all about criticising the Labour Party before the election, and the government since it won. Yes, there are those who disagree, but nobody is not 'allowing' anything.

GrannyGravy13

Oreo 👏👏👏

I will not forgive RR and the PM for this cruel act.

I agree GG.

There will be some cold pensioners this winter.

The hostility directed at the OP is unacceptable.