Keir Starmer aka Captain Flip Flop

I agree it’s not fair to continue the jibe coined by Johnson, but it’s hardly worth getting in a state about. I’m sure he’s been called worse, and I’m a Labour supporter.

Baggs

Babs03

TheHappyGardener

www.facebook.com/share/r/exvmifyEty7nktay/?mibextid=UalRPS

(Apologies to those who don’t have FB and can’t see the content - I couldn’t work out another way of copying the video)
I think anyone who, like me, feels aggrieved by Labour’s decision on the pensioners’ winter fuel payment should share this video far and wide on social media - maybe it can force a discussion at Prime Minister’s Question Time??

A Torygraph reader I imagine.
There will be winter fuel payments, but targeted at pensioners who need it, we have friends who have private pensions that mean they are so well off they can’t even spend a fraction of their money before they die. And yet they got the winter fuel payments.
We did too and though by no means well off gave a bit to our grown families to help them pay the bills.
Why give money to a whole section of society without figuring out who needs it.

This used to be the argument with respect to family allowance. Some people didn't need it so they shouldn't get it.

One riposte I heard several times was that it would be more expensive to work out who needed it and who didn't than just to give it to all mothers. I'm talking history here! But I imagine the same argument could be made now with regard to sorting out who actually needs the winter fuel allowance and who doesn't.

Also, people's circumstances change. One might not need it upon retirement but then one might need it a few years on.

Such arguments are worth considering.

I think what you describe was the original reasoning for pension credit Baggs, so that nobody who was left below the poverty line. It’s not worked as well as it could have done if so many people for various reasons, aren’t claiming what they are entitled to, and there must be a big effort to change that. If the level is raised it will obviously lift more people out of the poverty trap too. That’s what I’m hoping will happen over the next few months.

Elegran

Yes, it was designed to be inflammatory. I think she assumed that a social media site full of older people would all automatically join in with rubbishing Starmer totally for that one plank in the many he is using in trying to build an ark for the country to survive the flood. Gransnet is more diverse than that.

It was a reasonable and valid OP and something we’re all talking about, it’s just the Captain Flip Flop title that some object to.
He actually is flip flopping on the WFA matter as not long ago he was criticising the tories on this.
I don’t for one minute suppose that the OP thought everyone would agree with her but didn’t expect to be met with such hostility.

nightowl

I agree it’s not fair to continue the jibe coined by Johnson, but it’s hardly worth getting in a state about. I’m sure he’s been called worse, and I’m a Labour supporter.

Exactly what I feel.

I think the October statement will be the one to watch - loosing the WFA is just to reinforce who is in charge - and it’s definitely not the average person…..

Oreo

nightowl

I agree it’s not fair to continue the jibe coined by Johnson, but it’s hardly worth getting in a state about. I’m sure he’s been called worse, and I’m a Labour supporter.

Exactly what I feel.

You’ve done nothing but knock Labour ever since they came to power Oreo…

How does anyone excuse or reject the fact that Starmer is actually describing the hardship this will cause to many-not a paper report, but Starmer actually saying it wherever it was copied from?

Again, on X Starmer is seen and heard asking Sunak to agree that he won’t remove the winter fuel payment.

I suppose you could argue that Starmer didn’t, it was a member of his cabinet.

GrannyGravy13

Oreo 👏👏👏

I will not forgive RR and the PM for this cruel act.

Neither will I.

Pensioners are an easy target because there is no aggressive union to fight their cause. A petition set up by Age UK will just be ignored.

Imagine if ALL grandparents up and down the land withdrew their free childcare in protest. Public services like the NHS would be in chaos because the ‘little people’ who can’t afford expensive childcare wouldn’t be able to get to work and they are vital cogs in the wheel.

Of course it will never happen and the government knows that.

Mollygo

How does anyone excuse or reject the fact that Starmer is actually describing the hardship this will cause to many-not a paper report, but Starmer actually saying it wherever it was copied from?

Again, on X Starmer is seen and heard asking Sunak to agree that he won’t remove the winter fuel payment.

I suppose you could argue that Starmer didn’t, it was a member of his cabinet.

We’ve only heard part A of the plan, aka the removal of the universal benefit. There will be a part B.

Do you disagree with the removal of WFP from those who can afford to pay for fuel, or just from those who can’t?

Wyllow3

Lots of us in the Labour Party think that the WFP "bar" has been set too low and are doing something about it, but that a universal benefit is going to many who don't need it.

Scaremongering about "now they'll do this and that" is all speculation.

I find the headline for this thread entirely disingenuous: if you want to talk about WFA do so, but repeating right wing memes, what else do you expect - its simply inflammatory and was designed to be so.

Agreed.

I am so tired of cliches and unoriginal memes and jibes. Why can't people speak for themselves instead of trotting out 'witticisms' devised by others? We've all heard the dog whistles so often before that they switch people off before they've read the rest of the post.

Also, given the recent result of people spreading things on social media, asking people to spread a FB post 'far and wide' wasn't going to end well.

Regardless, I hope nobody leaves.

Galaxy

Can people on here tell us how many times you have to post on GN before you are allowed to express a view. Are there rules I am not aware of.

Yes Galaxy, you are not allowed to criticise the new government at all. Follow that rule and you’ll be okay.

I have seen posts by TheHappyGardener before, but not regularly. How she must be feeling after that onslaught on the page in reply to her post, I can only guess. Such absolutely nasty responses are uncalled for!

I have said it before, I will see it again, I would see all pensioner concessions go: bus passes, prescriptions, the lot. I would then imcrease the PC level significantly to compensate for what was lost. Everyone caan get prescription season tickets. Bus companies will offer pensioner travel cards, just as British rail does.

These bells and whistles are demeaning. They say that pensioners are too old and soft in the head to make sensible decisions about budgeting so we will ring fence their prescriptions, so that is all the money is spent on that - and nothing else - and we will ensure that they can always get a bus to town. meanwhile those of us who cannot travel by bus for various reasons or are not ill enough to need medical prescriptions lose out.

GrannyGravy13

Oreo 👏👏👏

I will not forgive RR and the PM for this cruel act.

I agree GG.

There will be some cold pensioners this winter.

The hostility directed at the OP is unacceptable.

Yes Galaxy, you are not allowed to criticise the new government at all. Follow that rule and you’ll be okay.

Seriously, maddie? For the past few weeks GN has been all about criticising the Labour Party before the election, and the government since it won. Yes, there are those who disagree, but nobody is not 'allowing' anything.

This thread reminds me why I don't bother with GN very much.

I think all this heat is affecting everyone's mood
Please stay everyone. I think it is going to get cooler by Thursday

What ever happened to DillyTheGardener?

maddyone

GrannyGravy13

Oreo 👏👏👏

I will not forgive RR and the PM for this cruel act.

I agree GG.

There will be some cold pensioners this winter.

The hostility directed at the OP is unacceptable.

It’s only cruel if there isn’t a mitigation for the people who depend financially on the WFP surely? It’s not cruel to take money off people who don’t need it, and reinvest the savings elsewhere.

TheHappyGardener

Ok - and this before I leave Gransnet for good. I’m an ordinary grandma in my 60s who won’t get my state pension for another 4 years (so never been in receipt of the WFP). I left my relatively well-paid job 4 years ago to look after my mother who has dementia. Two years ago, I had to find alternative part-time work to boost my meagre private pension (meagre because I’d left my job before my pension age). I’m now on just above the minimum wage. This year my husband reached state pension age but between us our earnings are just above the level for pension credit. The winter fuel payment would have been very helpful for us. None of this is really anyone’s business but our’s but I’ve told you to try and explain my reasons for my original post.

I am not ‘naive’, I do have ‘a mind of my own’ and I’m not ‘led like a sheep’. Neither am I rude - which a lot of you Gransnetters are!

I HAVE posted on here before, but mostly I read with interest other people’s posts. I’m truly shocked at your reactions to mine and won’t hang around to read any subsequent replies.

Apologies Happy Gardener.
Am afraid I also had a baptism of fire when I joined recently. But seems that some of us can be quite feisty when it comes to all things political. Is the same on any forum regardless of age.
Tbh you fought your corner so don’t give up now.
X

Do you disagree with the removal of WFP from those who can afford to pay for fuel, or just from those who can’t?

I don't think it's that simple. As I tried to point out in a previous post, finding out who can/can't afford to pay for fuel is not an easy task. There are variables quite apart from income level, such as where someone lives (it's colder up north) and what kind of house they live in, how old they are, what health conditions they have which might affect how warm they need to be, etc.

Re that last, I was reading an article today about someone who has an arthritic condition, needs a warmer house than average, and who says he will really miss the WFA. The thing that struck me though is that in the photograph of him he only appeared to be wearing a T-shirt on his upper half. I need three layers of clothing most of the summer where we live, never mind during the cold months (which, actually, is most of them).

The salient point is that the cost of working out who needs what is usually very expensive so it makes more economic sense to give things like WFA to all older people.

MayBee70

Oreo

nightowl

I agree it’s not fair to continue the jibe coined by Johnson, but it’s hardly worth getting in a state about. I’m sure he’s been called worse, and I’m a Labour supporter.

Exactly what I feel.

You’ve done nothing but knock Labour ever since they came to power Oreo…

Errrrr what?
They haven’t been in power long and I have criticised the plan to remove WFA and any plan not to put any British long term resident ahead of newcomers for social housing.
Two policies.Two.
Are you one of those people that just can’t bear your chosen political party to have anything at all critical said about them?

To those who think the opening post "infammatory".... you could always just ignore it. Isn't that usually regarded as the best way for things not to get inflamed?

A poster said

how dare you to the OP.

That is unacceptable language.

There are one after the other threads where any dissent is criticised. I’ve stayed off many of them. I don’t come on GN to be treated to patronising posts because I don’t necessarily agree with others. Or to be told how dare you, or to be deleted because my view is unacceptable. Neither did TheHappyGardener I imagine.

I gave my reasons for not wanting to share the OP’s post in my post of 11.45 (in case anybody is interested). I’m not repeating it.

Those of you who are happy for GN to be used as a means of distributing unverified content … that’s up to you.

MayBee, I share your frustration but I would be very sorry to see you leave GN.

nanna8

Keir Starmer, the animated budgie, is the hero of most on here. Criticise him at your peril!

Agree

Well said, maddyone. The outrage pile-ons are very unedifying and they happen quite a lot, especially to less well known posters.