Keir Starmer aka Captain Flip Flop

Do you honestly think that the government wants to attack pensioners? I don’t. I agree that pensioners are not being prioritised as Tories prioritised them, but that’s not the same thing.

Young people (less likely to vote Tory?) have had a very rough time over the past 14 years, and there is definitely a case for levelling up. I’m not defending the withdrawal of the WFP. I’ve said several times that I think it was a mistake. But if there were a choice between cutting that and reducing child benefit, say, it would take the judgment of Solomon to decide which to choose.

There is no answer to those who reject any blame on Labour, whether now or in the past.
I love the there are different priorities comment.
Pensioners certainly weren’t a priority last Labour government, nor in the last Conservative government.
This time, the very blow to pensioners that was ridiculed by Starmer when in opposition, is one of his first actions once in power.
And yes, I know it only affects a minority
and it’s important to look at the wider picture and
it totally pales in comparison. . . with what's happening to the NHS and the care system and many other areas of life because of Austerity.

It’s the same argument/excuse that the LP will use, every time things don’t go according to plan, or they’ve run out of ways to attack those whose votes they don’t consider as important.

Iam64

Wyllow3

Yes, GB did affect me too: yes I have less than I would have:

it totally pales in comparison for me and my life and millions of others with what's happening to the NHS and the care system and many other areas of life because of Austerity.

Bringing everything down to what affects us personally seems to lack any consideration of the wider implications.

But isn't bringing everything down to 'what affects me' one of the principles that Margaret Thatcher worked on? She appealed to individual interests. "There is no such thing as society, just individuals"

It worked, didn't it?

I agree with your analysis Dickens.

Wyllow3

Yes, GB did affect me too: yes I have less than I would have:

it totally pales in comparison for me and my life and millions of others with what's happening to the NHS and the care system and many other areas of life because of Austerity.

Bringing everything down to what affects us personally seems to lack any consideration of the wider implications.

maddyone

I think the point is that GB’s tax grab on pension pots is affecting people now and for the rest of their lives, despite the fact that GB made that decision years ago. His decision is affecting people now. Those people affected may well feel bad about that, however long ago it happened because they are living with the consequences now.

I think the point is that GB’s tax grab on pension pots is affecting people now and for the rest of their lives, despite the fact that GB made that decision years ago. His decision is affecting people now. Those people affected may well feel bad about that, however long ago it happened because they are living with the consequences now.

maddyone is right.

These fiscal decisions taken by successive Chancellors can have long-lasting effects and quite understandably those affected will feel a lingering bitterness.

The move-on-it-happened-a-long-time-ago strategy doesn't work so easily when someone's future plans have been affected by events that were completely outside their own control.

But this is an eternal problem, whichever government we are under. Both Labour and Tory governments have made policy decisions which have affected various sections of society at some point.

And the reason for this is because, basically, our society - our economy - is run for the benefit of the wealthy elite, and the rest of us, even those who are comparatively rich, are the exploited and manipulated other-half who are maintaining the status quo. In simple terms, that is how Capitalism works. And whichever government is in power, however they engineer the economy by tweaks here or there, they are still operating under the same system which means that economic crises are outside our control.

And if a party leader comes along and says he wants to run the country for the many not the few - the electorate throws up its hands in horror claiming he will bankrupt the country by driving the wealthy elite out of the country who will up sticks and leave.

So here we are with a Labour party determined to make things 'fairer' for everyone - distancing itself from both Tory free-market libertarianism on the one hand, and Corbyn's 'Marxism' on the other.

Why is the country in such a mess? Why is our NHS in such a terrible state and our public services underfunded, under-staffed and failing? Why are the impoverished pensioners, the sick and the disabled the ones who are going to pay the price for these economic crises? We've had 14 years of Austerity and spending cuts, and now we have Starmer's Labour party in the unenviable position of trying to address these huge economic problems.

He's in an impossible position because he's appeased both the hares and the hounds in order to win the election. And now he has to 'deliver'. The problem is that the interests of the hounds are diametrically opposed to those of the hares.

Growing the economy will ultimately benefit everyone to some degree - but the problem is, it will take a long time to do that and the majority of us will not see any improvement in our lives any time soon.

I lived and worked in Norway for some 12 years. They have a robust economy based on Capitalist principles. However, the government ideology is very much invested in its people - its education, its work-life balance, its health service, its welfare. Though very far from perfect, it is committed in principle to work for everyone, not only the wealthy elite.

But we are not up for that. We have the collective belief that the Tories are the only ones who can run our economy and that any move to change the dynamics will force the movers and shakers to decamp. So Starmer will have little choice other than to, basically, continue where the Tories left off though, hopefully, with less incompetence and less self-interest of his MPs. I acknowledge the fire-fighting he's done so far, especially the way he and the government have taken control over the rioting.

But I think it will take many years before we see any real change.

PS Just to be clear, I'm not recommending 'Corbynomics' - simply trying to be objective about our political system - I didn't vote for him. I just think that real change is impossible under the status-quo.

Exactly, Wyllow.

I’m not minimising it - I live with it. But that doesn’t explain my point, which is being ignored. It was a policy (a poor one IMO) brought in by someone who is not serving now. Even if GB were serving, who can say (particularly if they have had a professional career involving complex decisions) that they always got everything right?

The current government is made up of different people, we live in a different world and there are different priorities. I don’t understand the harking back. It’s not Harold McMillan who puts me off voting Conservative 😀

Yes, GB did affect me too: yes I have less than I would have:

it totally pales in comparison for me and my life and millions of others with what's happening to the NHS and the care system and many other areas of life because of Austerity.

I think the point is that GB’s tax grab on pension pots is affecting people now and for the rest of their lives, despite the fact that GB made that decision years ago. His decision is affecting people now. Those people affected may well feel bad about that, however long ago it happened because they are living with the consequences now.

Mollygo

*Of course we are in a different world, but it seem strange that we are not allowed to criticise a party who impacted negatively on our world now if it’s the Labour Party, whilst LP fans on here are keen to criticise Conservatives, in the recent and more distant past.*

Do I criticise Conservatives? Yes I do. . Brexit was wrong and I voted against it, but at least I voted.
The NHS-definitely, but researching it, the LP evidently didn’t leave it in too good a state either.
COVID-there were a lot of things that were wrong, but no one knows how the Labour Party would have handled it without the benefit of hindsight.

Mostly it was the dishonesty that was wrong. For example, saying what people should not do, then doing it themselves.

There are dishonest politicians in the all parties.

*Think of Starmer’s dishonesty in demanding that Sunak withdraw his decision to remove WFA to fill a black hole, then deciding to do exactly that using the same reason, a few months later.
(And being excused by LP supporters ^because it wasn’t in his manifesto^)* 🤣🤣🤣

.
But then GB’s actions only affected a minority so those it affected don’t matter if you’re looking at the wider picture.

The same way as the Labour Party’s decision on WFA will only affect a minority so it doesn’t matter.

I don’t think that things don’t matter if they only affect a small number of people. I think, however, that constant harping on at what was done by someone who has not had office for years is pointless. Our choice was between Sunak and Starmer, not between Brown and Cameron.

Freya5

Freya5

MayBee70

‘Personally, I think it’s unfair to blame the previous goverment for the major cause of inflation in 2022 which was the war on Ukraine - although there are arguments to be made about why the UK is so vulnerable to volatility in the wholesale energy market. This is something Labour is now addressing with GB Energy.’
Isn’t one of the reasons that the previous government got rid of our gas storage facilities ?

Gas storage
The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 following

The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 followinga government decision not to subsidise the costly maintenance and upgrades needed

So was shut by Centrica, they didn't want their profits spent on maintenence, would rather it went to shareholders is how I see it.

Freya5

MayBee70

‘Personally, I think it’s unfair to blame the previous goverment for the major cause of inflation in 2022 which was the war on Ukraine - although there are arguments to be made about why the UK is so vulnerable to volatility in the wholesale energy market. This is something Labour is now addressing with GB Energy.’
Isn’t one of the reasons that the previous government got rid of our gas storage facilities ?

Gas storage
The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 following

The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 followinga government decision not to subsidise the costly maintenance and upgrades needed

MayBee70

‘Personally, I think it’s unfair to blame the previous goverment for the major cause of inflation in 2022 which was the war on Ukraine - although there are arguments to be made about why the UK is so vulnerable to volatility in the wholesale energy market. This is something Labour is now addressing with GB Energy.’
Isn’t one of the reasons that the previous government got rid of our gas storage facilities ?

Gas storage
The Rough storage facility, owned by Centrica, the parent company of British Gas, provided 70% of the UK gas storage capacity for more than 30 years before it shut in 2017 following

‘Personally, I think it’s unfair to blame the previous goverment for the major cause of inflation in 2022 which was the war on Ukraine - although there are arguments to be made about why the UK is so vulnerable to volatility in the wholesale energy market. This is something Labour is now addressing with GB Energy.’
Isn’t one of the reasons that the previous government got rid of our gas storage facilities ?

The details are to follow but it seems that Rachael Reeves is planning changes to inheritance tax. The 7 year tax rule will be abolished and all gifts of money will be taxed at 40 per cent presumably according to Guido Fawkes. I wonder what will happen to the tax thresholds too?
More dampening down of the middle group….

Of course we are in a different world, but it seem strange that we are not allowed to criticise a party who impacted negatively on our world now if it’s the Labour Party, whilst LP fans on here are keen to criticise Conservatives, in the recent and more distant past.

Do I criticise Conservatives? Yes I do. . Brexit was wrong and I voted against it, but at least I voted.
The NHS-definitely, but researching it, the LP evidently didn’t leave it in too good a state either.
COVID-there were a lot of things that were wrong, but no one knows how the Labour Party would have handled it without the benefit of hindsight.

Mostly it was the dishonesty that was wrong. For example, saying what people should not do, then doing it themselves.

There are dishonest politicians in the all parties.

*Think of Starmer’s dishonesty in demanding that Sunak withdraw his decision to remove WFA to fill a black hole, then deciding to do exactly that using the same reason, a few months later.
(And being excused by LP supporters ^because it wasn’t in his manifesto^)* 🤣🤣🤣

.
But then GB’s actions only affected a minority so those it affected don’t matter if you’re looking at the wider picture.

The same way as the Labour Party’s decision on WFA will only affect a minority so it doesn’t matter.

BevSec

Mollygo, you are absolutely right, you have had personal experience.

As do I. Well, as does my husband, which comes to the same thing. As I said, that happened decades ago and was done under Gordon Brown, who is not in the cabinet, so has no bearing whatsoever on Starmer’s regime today.

We are in a different world now.

Some info swampy1961 on the rioters:

"But I am intrigued by the fact that they have been able to jail rioters for their recent actions so quickly and efficiently - so why is there such a backlog of other legal cases that take months or years to achieve anything purposefully. Have the legal profession been sat on their hands for the past few years?

quick answer is

Most of the rioters pleaded guilty so went straight to magistrates court which is quick as the police do not have to prepare a detailed case - therefore quick results

But those pleading Not Guilty will be faced with the long wait as others who are in the long queues for Crown Court and issues with legal aid etc.

I agree with you Casdon and Doodledog. There are always winners and losers when changes are introduced or life bites you. I am not going to catalogue my losses but it’s a lot and not only money.

Going back to to the opening post to provide some more context.

First of all this was a longer interview that Starmer did with Jackie Brown of Good Housekeeping Magazine as part of the series Readers Ask The Leaders. The full interview is here. The bit about the pensioners he met in 2022 is at 15 minutes. Starmer talks about the need to stabilise the economy, to stabilise prices. The question of the WFP does not come up.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBaLN58bOGo

Starmer tweeted the clip himself on 30 April 2024 here. It was in the run up to the local elections that week:

x.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1785303047704346728

He tweets: My Labour Party will always be on the side of pensioners let down by the Tories.

He is talking about the need to stabilise the economy, an economy that he claimed the government had lost control of to the detriment of pensioners (and anyone else on a limited income for that matter but he was answering a question posed by a pensioner).

Personally, I think it’s unfair to blame the previous goverment for the major cause of inflation in 2022 which was the war on Ukraine - although there are arguments to be made about why the UK is so vulnerable to volatility in the wholesale energy market. This is something Labour is now addressing with GB Energy.

However, prices and inflation were already rising steadily before the war took hold as these charts show:

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9428/

Inflation that was at 11.1% by October 2022 is now down to 2%. Energy unit prices have come down several times since the peak of the crisis. The energy cap is expected to rise slightly later this year but that doesn’t mean consumers use up to that limit.

My question is why was the woman who was reluctant to heat her home not managing? I’m not trying to blame but trying to understand. If she was 84, she would have received at least £1,000 of help in 2022 - WFP of £600 and EBSS of £400 and morehelp if she was receiving pension credit. So was she receiving all the help that she was entitled to? Is she receiving all the pension she is entitled to? A lot of women aren’t. I've even heard of more than once case where the people hadn't even realised that the WFP was higher that year or that they were getting an extra £66 a month help from EBSS. The extra money was sitting in their bank account and they hadn't realised. It's all about information and sometimes it doesn't get through to the people who need it most. Some had heard the news saying the energy cap was £4,279 - not really understanding what that meant but assumed that their bill was going to that much if they put their heating on. I heat a large house and my annual bill that year after WFP and EBSS was £330.

I think the major failure here is the fact that so many pensioners are not receiving the income that they should be; whether it’s underpaid state pension or pension credit which is a gateway to other benefits. Where was the systematic policy over the last fourteen years to ensure that people are paid what they are entitled to? Over that fourteen years, the government had no less than nine Secretaries of State for Work and Pensions and seven Pensions Ministers. Sixteen ministers in fourteen years; billions of pounds in underpaid pensions and 800,000 people who are said to be eligible for Pension Credit and not receiving it. That’s shocking.

When you read about how badly the DWP handled the equalisation of the state pension age you realise just how little joined up thinking there is and how much reluctance there is to acknowledge and tackle the big problems. Part of the problem is severe under investment in the IT systems that the DWP needs. That became apparent during the WASPI enquiry and little seems to have changed since then. Former Pensions Minister until September 2022, Guy Opperman, has recently admitted this. 12+ ageing computer systems that are not up to the job. At least Reeves has acknowledged that there’s an issue with underpayment of benefits. It’s just a pity that she didn’t postpone the withdrawal of WFP until this had been resolved. That said there might be mitigating measures in the Autumn Statement. We really do need to wait and see.

GrannyGravy13

Exactly maddyone , whether or not the Conservatives would have removed it we will never know, the bottom line is that Labour have removed it.

They have given Pensioners four pension payments to save for their winter fuel bills. How are they meant to save when many are living hand to mouth as it is!

I agree GrannyGravy13.

I think people affected by the tax grab on pension pots by Gordon Brown have every right to feel aggrieved, because whilst it wa as long time ago, the effects are being felt now. I am not partisan on this issue because neither myself nor Mr M were affected by those changes, so I have no axe to grind. However I can certainly see why those whose pensions have been reduced as a result of that tax grab (as it was then called) because that reduced pension will go on for the rest of their lives. Meanwhile, Mr Brown, along with all other previous government ministers, of every political persuasion, doesn’t have to worry about his publicly funded, extremely generous pension.

It is early days yet for Keir Starmer and his government - but I always felt that he said what appeared to be needed to be said.
He didn't make me feel that he would be someone to be trusted but to be fair to him he was supportive of most of the action taken during COVID. When the rubbish hits the fan - you want your political parties to be reasonably cohesive on issues that were dominating the world. For what it's worth - although BoJo and his ilk were caught out flexing the rules they were not the only ones - quite a few people did - along with others up and down the country.
Now we have a change of government it will take a while for them to get their feet settled under the desk. We lost an exceptional Conservative MP who brought a lot of much needed funding for long needed projects in the area, for a Labour MP who rented a house in the locality to say he was resident in the area.
If this new MP can keep up the work of the predecessor because it affects my home area, then I will be impressed - but he has not said anything of any real substance yet about his intentions. But then he is unlikely to know what is needed because he's never lived here or experienced life here!! But he is new, so I'm willing to wait to see what he does. So far, we have seen lots of local media news with him posing in photos overseeing projects completed by his predecessor who really should be taking the credit for his work for the past few years.
Rachel Reeves says she is uncovering black holes but is also hiding her figures under the cover of the previous chancellors - but then it's rare that a numbers person has not massaged figures to present things in a better or worse view depending on the circumstances.
So Keir Starmer does appear to be flip flopping but as other pp have said - not much of it was in the manifesto - but when I read their manifesto (as I did for most of the parties) I was hard put to see what they actually planned to do when in power other than wait and see until they actually got there.
Well, they are there now - so now we must wait until they make some decisions and then upset a few citizens of the UK when they are revealed.
But I am intrigued by the fact that they have been able to jail rioters for their recent actions so quickly and efficiently - so why is there such a backlog of other legal cases that take months or years to achieve anything purposefully. Have the legal profession been sat on their hands for the past few years?

Mollygo, you are absolutely right, you have had personal experience.

Mr Dog's pension was affected too, and that, combined with moving my pension age forward, has made a big difference to our finances in retirement. But that was one policy years ago, and GB is not in government now. There were many things that Blair and Brown got right, as well as wrong. How far should we go back to blame different people for things that have nothing to do with the people in power now?

We had a choice at the election - to keep a self-interested bunch of liars in power or to start again with a new cabinet who promise integrity and policies based on equality. Of course they won't get everything right. They won't always be able to do the things they said they'd do either, but at least the things they are aiming for are decent.

As I see it, we have a choice now, too. We can hope for the best and give them a chance, or we can moan and grot and complain about everything they do before they've had a chance to do it properly. The end result will be the same - their policies will be go through, and they'll either succeed or fail, whether we spend the next four or five years feeling hopeful or bitter. I'd rather look on the bright side - negativity is bad for the soul.

I’m not interested in playing juvenile games Mollygo.