Keir Starmer aka Captain Flip Flop

Indeed GG. I’m in the lucky position of not having to worry about it, but I’ve seen estimates that two million pensioners will find the winter very difficult, particularly if it’s a cold winter. Some of those two million pensioners are on GN. Let’s not forget that.

maddyone 👍

I'm just curious about this "black hole" that our new Chancellor is unveiling.

Obviously, I am not an economist, which will be obvious from some of my previous observations on GN. But I do have a questioning mind.

For instance, which accountancy rules are used to arrive at this government debt? Because from what I've been reading (no, not on Facebook or YouTube), if you change the accountancy rule, you can, ahem, adjust the 'black hole' accordingly - or even remove the debt.

And then, there's government 'forecasts', so a small increase in forecasted government borrowing can increase the debt.

Mr Calvert Jump (now there's a name for you!), senior lecturer in the School of Accounting, Finance and Economics, has said that

"There is now a consensus among economists that austerity does significant damage to an economy's potential, undermining growth, as the experience of the last decade in Britain has shown us"

Now pensioners just above the PC cut off may not be big spenders, but I'd wager their money more or less goes straight back into the economy. Any government plan that causes anyone to tighten their belts, is just plain old Austerity - again.

During the pandemic/lockdown(s) government pumped money into the economy - much of which I believe ended up in the pockets of the wealthiest. Where do they spend their wealth - conspicuously? Designer handbags? Jewellery? I think they spend it more quietly - on education, ensuring the continuation of the privileges of wealth, on health, property and investments. And their accountants, who accommodate their need to legitimately avoid tax as far as possible.

And, as the rich become richer and the rest of us remain static or poorer - where is the money coming from to grow the economy, as Starmer intends? If removal of the WFA from the above PC cut off is the beginning of more Austerity - or whatever his government decides to call it - if people are going to have less disposable income, where is this growth going to come from? Will we be an attractive option for investment?

I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this - except to say that I do not accept the 'black hole' claim by RR - because it's a £number/sum that can be +/- depending on which accountancy rules are used and economic 'forecasts',

MaizieD, where are you?

Dickens

I'm just curious about this "black hole" that our new Chancellor is unveiling.

Obviously, I am not an economist, which will be obvious from some of my previous observations on GN. But I do have a questioning mind.

For instance, which accountancy rules are used to arrive at this government debt? Because from what I've been reading (no, not on Facebook or YouTube), if you change the accountancy rule, you can, ahem, adjust the 'black hole' accordingly - or even remove the debt.

And then, there's government 'forecasts', so a small increase in forecasted government borrowing can increase the debt.

Mr Calvert Jump (now there's a name for you!), senior lecturer in the School of Accounting, Finance and Economics, has said that

"There is now a consensus among economists that austerity does significant damage to an economy's potential, undermining growth, as the experience of the last decade in Britain has shown us"

Now pensioners just above the PC cut off may not be big spenders, but I'd wager their money more or less goes straight back into the economy. Any government plan that causes anyone to tighten their belts, is just plain old Austerity - again.

During the pandemic/lockdown(s) government pumped money into the economy - much of which I believe ended up in the pockets of the wealthiest. Where do they spend their wealth - conspicuously? Designer handbags? Jewellery? I think they spend it more quietly - on education, ensuring the continuation of the privileges of wealth, on health, property and investments. And their accountants, who accommodate their need to legitimately avoid tax as far as possible.

And, as the rich become richer and the rest of us remain static or poorer - where is the money coming from to grow the economy, as Starmer intends? If removal of the WFA from the above PC cut off is the beginning of more Austerity - or whatever his government decides to call it - if people are going to have less disposable income, where is this growth going to come from? Will we be an attractive option for investment?

I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this - except to say that I do not accept the 'black hole' claim by RR - because it's a £number/sum that can be +/- depending on which accountancy rules are used and economic 'forecasts',

MaizieD, where are you?

Yes I am waiting with interest for the spending review and budget. I shall be listening very closely to Reeves rhetoric because, even if she sticks to the current Tory fiscal policy (she absolutely doesn’t need to, nor imo would it be advisable) I would like to see what in her opinion the future will look like.

maddyone

Cossy I’m not a Labour supporter (although as centre voter I agree with some of their policies) and I do think you’re pretty balanced.
I don’t like seeing people banned, but I do think deleting a comment is necessary sometimes, especially if a poster makes a personal attack (which I was subjected to yesterday on a different thread) and I was very upset by it.

None should ever ever make vicious, rude, vitriolic comments against any other person here.

I too would report something if it happened to me, so I don’t blame you.

I do find some the comments/accusations on here ott, my view now is we have a Labour govt, they’ll be in power for a few years, let’s hope things improve.

Things didn’t improve for us under the previous govt, and for many many people things got worse. That’s factual.

maddyone

Indeed GG. I’m in the lucky position of not having to worry about it, but I’ve seen estimates that two million pensioners will find the winter very difficult, particularly if it’s a cold winter. Some of those two million pensioners are on GN. Let’s not forget that.

👏👏👏👏

Yes I am waiting with interest for the spending review and budget. I shall be listening very closely to Reeves rhetoric because, even if she sticks to the current Tory fiscal policy (she absolutely doesn’t need to, nor imo would it be advisable) I would like to see what in her opinion the future will look like.

Me, too Whitewavemark2.

Having voted for this government, I'm definitely going to be holding them to account.

GrannyGravy13

GN is so toxic at the moment.

I find it ridiculous that the Conservatives have had to put up with all manner of insults, but lo and behold Labour are elected and their GN supporters turn into delicate little flowers, who we are unable to comment on…

Report button frenzy…

I’m not sure if you’re referring to the person I reported this morning GrannyGravy13, and posted that I had done so. I reported her for a very personal attack on another poster, not because she said anything about Labour. If I see personal attacks that are vicious I always report them and say so, regardless of who did it or to who, and I’d be uncomfortable to be told not to do that, because I think it’s very wrong.

If it’s about politics then anything is fair game, the best form of defence is to attack back.

Political nerds understand the rules generally I think. It is posters who have a single issue point to make who are not generally up to speed with the way politics work and get p….d off when challenged.

That is why sometimes their posts get personnel because they take the push back personally, which of course it isn’t if it being argued properly.

maddyone

Indeed GG. I’m in the lucky position of not having to worry about it, but I’ve seen estimates that two million pensioners will find the winter very difficult, particularly if it’s a cold winter. Some of those two million pensioners are on GN. Let’s not forget that.

I've read posts from one or two of them.

The energy price cap is going up again in October, I believe. So they will probably have higher bills. The posts indicate that they will be in a precarious position.

And, as another poster pointed out. Pensioners spend more time at home and often feel the cold more acutely - especially if they have health conditions.

I'm OK (just about anyway), but I know that others will be watching every penny and have it accounted for.

I know it's something of a cliché - but why do the poorest and often most vulnerable always have to pay for these supposed 'black holes'? They - we - have no control over what happens to the economy, why aren't the movers and shakers who create these economic crises the ones who pay?

Is Liz Truss going to suffer financially, for example?

I guess we'll just have to wait for the budget.

GG13 What I find thoroughly ridiculous is why you feel the critique of our former govt wasn’t justified??

Some terrible terrible things happened, laws were broken, people died unnecessarily, many MPs embroiled in scandals, money misappropriated. Many many people suffered the last 14 years and still feel bitter, angry and upset.

This govt has had 6 weeks thus far and have made a decision about WFA which many of us feel is unfair to those pensioners not on PC having just a little more than the threshold. I’m sure we all hope that something g is done in mitigation for those affected.

Rather than “share” on FB, which stirs people up and achieves nothing, why don’t those affected start an online petition (I’ll happily sign it) and all write to their MPs, this is far more likely to help get it discussed in the HoC than using Social Media.

We who support the LP, will certainly be holding them to account

maddyone

At the end of the day, the OP posted a link showing Keir Starmer saying that he wouldn’t remove WFA from pensioners.
Last week WFA was removed from pensioners.
That is what the whole thread is about.

No, no, no. What he says in the linked clip is:

I went to Dewsbury, winter before last in the height of the energy crisis ... (so that would be 2022) … He talks about what one person was doing to keep warm and another person’s experience with shop prices. He says nothing about WFP.

Everybody was suffering in 2022. It’s why the government gave all households £400 under the Energy Bill Support Scheme, upped the WFP temporarily (leaving the higher amount in place for 2023) and gave Cost of Living payments to the poorest (or based on council tax bands which isn't the same thing but was a quick and easy way to get money to people).

Since then, energy prices have come down several times - see the chart - while state pension was increased by 10.1% in April 2023 and 8.5% in April 2024.

Inflation is substantially down from where it was two and one winters ago. It was running at 11% in autumn 2022. It's now down to 2%.

This is not two years ago which is what Starmer was referring to in the clip.

Recently here, someone posted a clip from Martin Lewis saying that energy prices could be going up by 70%. It was a clip he recorded in 2022 during the energy crisis. I asked the poster to ask the mods to take it down because it was fake news. They did.

This is what is annoying me - that people are using clips about 2022 to talk about now and, in this instance, claiming Starmer said something that he didn't. It's misinformation.

I find it hard to think that someone I know who is just slightly over the threshold for pension credit is having to plan her winter. It will mean riding on buses and spending time in the library for warmth. At home she will rely on blankets and hot water bottles.
I just hope she keeps well as she knows she can't afford heating.

Cossy where have I said that the previous Government did not deserve to be critiqued ?

I voted for the previous Government, I disagreed with a lot of what happened during their tenure.

I think most Conservatives on GN became immune to the many insults posted towards those of you that voted for this Government etc.

And using the sort of term in the heading that is being bandied around by Musk on X which was my problem with it. Surely we need to question why Musk et al are doing this and why it is being spread around far and wide on social media?

Misinformation is becoming a scourge.

AGAA4

I find it hard to think that someone I know who is just slightly over the threshold for pension credit is having to plan her winter. It will mean riding on buses and spending time in the library for warmth. At home she will rely on blankets and hot water bottles.
I just hope she keeps well as she knows she can't afford heating.

That’s truly awful.

I do remember the days, like we all do, before central heating. The only room warm in my gran’s house (we lived there for a while) was the front room as she had an open fire, the rest of the house was freezing, especially the bedrooms and bathrooms.

We all had home knitted jumpers and thick eiderdowns over our sheets and blankets. We all wore layers in the house. My grandparents somehow survived winters, though some didn’t.

Whitewavemark2

Misinformation is becoming a scourge.

It’s terribly dangerous and inflammatory.

GrannyGravy13

Cossy where have I said that the previous Government did not deserve to be critiqued ?

I voted for the previous Government, I disagreed with a lot of what happened during their tenure.

I think most Conservatives on GN became immune to the many insults posted towards those of you that voted for this Government etc.

I think anyone has a right to critique the govt in power, whoever they are and whoever they voted for.

I do hope this govt make a positive difference, not because I voted for them, but because we ALL desperately need them to do so.

Tony Benn once told me ‘don’t be cynical, be critical’ and I will always be critical even if it’s criticism of my own party. To be fair to Keir when he was in opposition he always said he would support the government if it was in the best interest of the country to do so. I hope, with so many awful things happening both here and abroad, that parliament will continue to behave in that way. And that we can all work together to make the country a better place.

MayBee70

Tony Benn once told me ‘don’t be cynical, be critical’ and I will always be critical even if it’s criticism of my own party. To be fair to Keir when he was in opposition he always said he would support the government if it was in the best interest of the country to do so. I hope, with so many awful things happening both here and abroad, that parliament will continue to behave in that way. And that we can all work together to make the country a better place.

Hear hear

So can I clarify if this is what what Maerion uncovered:

Words used in 2022 have been used to say that Starmer "flip flopped" on a direct promise apparently made recently, when he did not, and the accusation has been made on spurious grounds

Not blaming the O/P for picking this misinformation up, but to say - a Facebook Social Media post (not in MM) has led to pages of bitterness and recriminations and people leaving

- words fail. How dangerous this all is.

As a Labour Party member I feel free and not afraid to call them out, as I have in GN on the level at which WFA is withdrawn. Have written to RR and local Lab MP and so on and it will come up in local meetings except of course not in August.

The fiscal rules are just made up.