Sick of Starmer relentlessly using the words"difficult " & "painful"

I don’t think most Tories are against the NHS the issue is how to fund it, we are not paying enough into health services. My own opinion is, subject to a means test, SOME services need to be paid for, I would be against privatization, a system where there was a choice between direct payment and insurance to pay part or fully pay for treatment.

because the best thing for the NHS would be to depoliticise it.

I just can't see how that could be done.

Look at the BBC. It's supposed to be non political, but is it? With its key positions stuffed with tory appointments and the potential, no, the reality, of it being blackmailed by governments threatening to withhold funding if it doesn't toe the political line. And the BBC is a far smaller and less complex institution than the NHS. Which is a leviathan...

Even if the NHS were completely politically independent it would still be dependent on state funding (if it weren't it would no longer be the NHS) and so open to 'pressure' from the party that controls the funding.

Am sure there are many tories in agreement with having a NHS.It takes a bold government to suggest a cross-party approach to running it and I wish this new government would do it, but until the next government who maybe won’t have a large majority in the HOC I can’t see it happening.

Freya5

Dickens

MaizieD

I don't see how it would be possible to get any cross party agreement on running the NHS as at least one party is ideologically opposed to it and has been ever since its inception.

But the NHS is a reality, it exists, regardless of the opposition to it.

Cross-party agreement would be difficult, but those on the 'board' or 'committee' or whatever it might be called, would have to accept the principle of the NHS surely in order to be part of the set-up?

Are all Tories opposed to it?

If the Tories had been "idealogically opposed" the NHS, they would have rid us of it over the last 14 years. Don't forget Blair , still paying for his part in PFI, fully sanctioned private input, as do most countries in Europe, and I will say, because of separate insurances, used in Europe, my family are able to access Dr's and Dentists at a better rate than we can ever wish for .

I think Freya5 that those Tories who are ideologically opposed to the NHS in principle would find it near impossible to get rid of it.

Why? Because so many people - those who support the Tories included - need it and rely on it.

Such a move would be a huge constitutional change - any government would probably have to 'go to the people' to get a mandate for its removal.

Destroying it by stealth though is a different matter.

I also think the internal market hasn't worked how it might have. It has probably driven improvements in efficiency in many areas, but payments for services can be politically skewed & not enough notice is taken of the clinical leaders within those services when these "incentives" to do things a certain way are devised. It's a good idea on paper but healthcare is so complex & does not equate to manufacturing & selling baked beans. There's a lot of data but not enough care in interpreting it (or the analysts interpreting it don't understand the clinical factors or even the admin factors sometimes, that can affect it)

There are many who suspect that the Lansley reforms in 2012 were designed with the privatisation of the NHS in mind. Tories certainly didn't do much to improve the NHS since then.

Interesting report on the news tonight about gifts to ministers.

No more clothing gifts for PM and ministers. Doesn’t mention spouses clothing.
Clothing is so visible. No mention of other gifts.

valdavi

I also think the internal market hasn't worked how it might have. It has probably driven improvements in efficiency in many areas, but payments for services can be politically skewed & not enough notice is taken of the clinical leaders within those services when these "incentives" to do things a certain way are devised. It's a good idea on paper but healthcare is so complex & does not equate to manufacturing & selling baked beans. There's a lot of data but not enough care in interpreting it (or the analysts interpreting it don't understand the clinical factors or even the admin factors sometimes, that can affect it)

It's a good idea on paper but healthcare is so complex & does not equate to manufacturing & selling baked beans

Quite.

MaizieD

There are many who suspect that the Lansley reforms in 2012 were designed with the privatisation of the NHS in mind. Tories certainly didn't do much to improve the NHS since then.

There are many who suspect that the Lansley reforms in 2012 were designed with the privatisation of the NHS in mind.

Yes - it was said so at the time, I remember.

Good - I hope they will now take it further.

But its when you read the declarations its the non specific cash gifts that raise big ??

(Was answering cash for clothes)

Mollygo

No more clothing gifts for PM and ministers. Doesn’t mention spouses clothing.
Clothing is so visible. No mention of other gifts.

You don't think he's going to give up his hospitality freebie at the Emirates and other football grounds or tickets for him and his family to Taylor Swift concerts and the like do you? That he could attend all these events by paying for them like everyone else seems to be beyond his understanding. I thought better of him, but you live and learn, sadly.

The same is true of Jenricks £50.000 + cash gifts, we'll never know what they went on!

No point just bashing Starmer on this - plenty of examples over the last few years.

I think it's about time to look at all the MP gifts and cut them.

Time for a shift in what has been taken for granted for years. Its the Labour conference coming up and I know there are many who'd like to see change on this custom and practice

The news tonight is that Keir Starmer, Rachel Thieves and Angela Rayner have all stated that they will no longer accept gifts of clothes.

What kind of government is so super sensitive over adverse comments on free clothing? There are plenty of comments about pensioner poverty so let’s hope the government can revisit that too?

ronib

What kind of government is so super sensitive over adverse comments on free clothing? There are plenty of comments about pensioner poverty so let’s hope the government can revisit that too?

Yes, maybe if pensioners should not receive money for something they can afford themselves, apply the same rule to MPs.

I agree -

across the board.

It's also tied up with what you can earn as an MP too.

I know this has been discussed already on this thread.

There's a difference between earnings from say continuing some work in a profession where you need to keep qualifications up, and so called "work" like well paid directorships: or the questionable work in the media that we looked up above:

or payment for "speaking engagements" that seems somewhat excessive...

Whilst still an MP, Boris Johnson earned £1m from speaking engagements since leaving Downing Street

*An update to the MPs' register of interests showed Mr Johnson had received more than £750,000 in fees ….
……….for three speeches given in November* (2022)

Yes, thats £250.000 for a speech Is this not a "gift"?

news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-earns-1m-from-speaking-engagements-since-leaving-downing-street-12768139

Lisaangel10

The news tonight is that Keir Starmer, Rachel Thieves and Angela Rayner have all stated that they will no longer accept gifts of clothes.

Probably no more room in their wardrobes.

Wyllow3, Boris probably gives a very impressive speech, he is a clever man.

What, £250.000 worth, 2.5 times of a year of Starmer's spending for one evening?

It's a gift with a legal label on, nothing more.

Wyllow3

I agree -

across the board.

It's also tied up with what you can earn as an MP too.

I know this has been discussed already on this thread.

There's a difference between earnings from say continuing some work in a profession where you need to keep qualifications up, and so called "work" like well paid directorships: or the questionable work in the media that we looked up above:

or payment for "speaking engagements" that seems somewhat excessive...

Whilst still an MP, Boris Johnson earned £1m from speaking engagements since leaving Downing Street

*An update to the MPs' register of interests showed Mr Johnson had received more than £750,000 in fees ….
……….for three speeches given in November* (2022)

Yes, thats £250.000 for a speech Is this not a "gift"?

news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-earns-1m-from-speaking-engagements-since-leaving-downing-street-12768139

People willing to pay, and it's within rules,what is the problem. Boris is not the problem, he's been and gone.
Labour are now the problem, not so whiter than white eh.

Oh that's big of them no longer accepting gifts of clothes, what about other gifts?

Fees are not gifts Wyllow. Yes, there are plenty of examples over the years so when Starmer was so quick to bash Boris he should have had more sense and more integrity then to have accepted gifts for himself and his wife.

The man's a hypocrite.

Freya5

Wyllow3

I agree -

across the board.

It's also tied up with what you can earn as an MP too.

I know this has been discussed already on this thread.

There's a difference between earnings from say continuing some work in a profession where you need to keep qualifications up, and so called "work" like well paid directorships: or the questionable work in the media that we looked up above:

or payment for "speaking engagements" that seems somewhat excessive...

Whilst still an MP, Boris Johnson earned £1m from speaking engagements since leaving Downing Street

*An update to the MPs' register of interests showed Mr Johnson had received more than £750,000 in fees ….
……….for three speeches given in November* (2022)

Yes, thats £250.000 for a speech Is this not a "gift"?

news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-earns-1m-from-speaking-engagements-since-leaving-downing-street-12768139

People willing to pay, and it's within rules,what is the problem. Boris is not the problem, he's been and gone.
Labour are now the problem, not so whiter than white eh.

You’ve clearly not looked at the link I provided, the issue is endemic, not party specific. You can look up any MP from 2019 onwards. It’s an eye opener.

What has happened is that a critique of custom and practice that has previously existed without a great deal of publicity - including Johnsons £250.000 for an evening - grumbled about but not condemned as morally wrong

is that Starmer's case has been brought into the spotlight by certain newspapers/the media who want to make a case against him personally, but the fallout is

that quite rightly gifts and related activities have been sharply brought into the spotlight and criticised

But - once done, once agreed its "not right", (which I have agreed with) - you have to apply the "is it right" "it shouldn't happen"

across the board

It's salutary to therefore look at present and recent past MP "perks" whilst they have been an MP in terms of "how much"

Its not just Labour in the present, as I said twice above

Jenricks July 2024 receiving gifts of £50.000 (see reference above) over 2 days has a valid?? and there are probably others - all relevant if we are to look at change custom and habits in parliamentary life.

Since I have never claimed Starmer was saintly I dont feel the need to defend the current criticism.