Thousands stuck in Lebanon

@ronib highly hyperbolical rhetoric. Would expect nothing less
But back in the realms of reality Israeli forces have now blocked a major route for Lebanese civilians fleeing the bombing into Syria.
This does contravene international laws on the theatre of war inasmuch as civilians should be able to escape a war zone as safely as possible.

Babs03 my best guess is that Israel had to block the escape route to Syria for obvious reasons - to stop Hamas and Hezbelloh from getting into Syria.
It is a great pity that civilians are yet again caught up in this slaughter.

Utter despair at the situation and the comments. Apart from those who actually have a link to the region, some lived experience and understanding.

Terrorists don't " get into" countries.

eggplantterrorists are interested in staying alive. They won’t just sit in Lebanon where they have a stronghold waiting to be destroyed. Of course terrorists will go to Syria. Of course it plays into the anti Israel narrative.
What has lived experience got to do with it?

ronib

Babs03 my best guess is that Israel had to block the escape route to Syria for obvious reasons - to stop Hamas and Hezbelloh from getting into Syria.
It is a great pity that civilians are yet again caught up in this slaughter.

Regardless of whether terrorists escape, and nothing and nobody can have control over that, civilians must be given as safe a passage as possible out of a war zone.
That is international law.
Sadly Gazans are stuck like rats in a rat run in Gaza with all exits blocked and no safe place to run.
In every conflict international laws will be broken and war crimes committed but in this present conflict it seems to be very much open season with no recognition of refugee camps, hospitals, schools or aid workers and journalists. Of course the forgive all mantra is that terrorists are in there. So one question, if a terrorist was holed up in an Israeli hospital or school would they bomb it with bunker bombs or use other means - that are available to a high tech fighting machine like the IDF - to remove said terrorists.
Honest question so if someone could answer it I would be grateful.

October 7th? Position in international law?

Babs03

@ronib highly hyperbolical rhetoric. Would expect nothing less
But back in the realms of reality Israeli forces have now blocked a major route for Lebanese civilians fleeing the bombing into Syria.
This does contravene international laws on the theatre of war inasmuch as civilians should be able to escape a war zone as safely as possible.

That route is shut because Hezbollah are using it to bring weapons in.

ronib

October 7th? Position in international law?

I thought we were discussing a bunch of terrorists against a first world US and western government funded and armed democracy.
If you want to call Israel a terrorist state am sure a lot would agree with you, but is that your wish?
Nobody expected the IRA to obey international laws but it was incumbent upon the UK to do so which is why NI wasn’t subjected to a scorched earth policy and thousands weren’t killed in the first year.
This is not how a first world country fights terrorism, unless Nestanyahu wants to compete with Putin or Saddam on this.
In the beginning there was room for negotiation in getting the hostages back when a temporary ceasefire was called and both sides agreed to it, as I remember Qatar helped bring this about. After that there was a way to continue the ceasefire and get the rest of the hostages released as well as to enter into dialogue. But Qatar washed its hands of it when Israel refused to do anything other than get rid of Hamas.
At the Good Friday agreement the UK had to sit around a table with Sein Fein and at some point Israel with have to do the same with Hamas. But my gut says it is too late now and if Iran gets more involved so will western governments including our own, dragged into a bloody and protracted war with 50,000 already dead.
There is another way.
And it was Netanyahu who didn’t take it, even Biden and the US administration are exasperated with him.

@petra if the IDF have blocked this route due to weapons coming in how hard is it for them to let refugees out but nobody back in??
If is blocked there are soldiers there right?
This isn’t rocket science.

petra

Babs03

@ronib highly hyperbolical rhetoric. Would expect nothing less
But back in the realms of reality Israeli forces have now blocked a major route for Lebanese civilians fleeing the bombing into Syria.
This does contravene international laws on the theatre of war inasmuch as civilians should be able to escape a war zone as safely as possible.

That route is shut because Hezbollah are using it to bring weapons in.

Some are conveniently ignoring this fact.

Babs03

@petra if the IDF have blocked this route due to weapons coming in how hard is it for them to let refugees out but nobody back in??
If is blocked there are soldiers there right?
This isn’t rocket science.

It’s a very limited on the ground response from Israel at the moment.
They’re targeting Hezbollah more with missiles.It’s a difficult situation for Israel just as Gaza was when the terrorists hole up in medical centres and the like and have tunnels.
Well done Israel for wiping out the Hezbollah top brass.

Babs03 I think there are a few differences in the example you described re IRA. If Iran had backed the IRA, do you think we would ever have reached a peace agreement?
What is in this for Iran and other Shia states? It feels as if the cauldron has gone beyond boiling point because so many different interests are stoking the conflict. There’s an obvious economic advantage to oil producing nations too.
I don’t think it’s as simple as sitting round a table anymore. I have a horrible feeling that escalation is going to happen and there’s nothing the West can do to stop it.
So far Israel has had the upper hand in a number of ways and I am wondering how far it will go in the next month. I am almost expecting an assassination attempt on the Iranian government. Although new people will just carry on as before so not the best idea?

I don't think it's much to do with being Shia. As far as I know, Iraq is mainly Shia, but Iran and Iraq hate each other. Gaza certainly isn't Shia. The enemy for Iran is Israel, so Iran supports any conflict against Israel.

growstuff

I don't think it's much to do with being Shia. As far as I know, Iraq is mainly Shia, but Iran and Iraq hate each other. Gaza certainly isn't Shia. The enemy for Iran is Israel, so Iran supports any conflict against Israel.

Iraq isn’t mainly Shi’ite, it is mainly Sunni with a Shi’ite population in the south, and Iran backed the Shi’ite in the South to defeat Saddam back when the west wanted Saddam out in the early 2000s because back in the 1980s there was the Iran/Iraq war which went on for many years. Oddly enough, or maybe not, the US backed Saddam to defeat Iran back then.
Seems the US will back any horse to defeat Iran.
Iran hasn’t historically had any reason to hate Israel but after 1979 saw it as a US pawn in the ME and after Israel entered into a conflict with Lebanon in the 1980s and
again in 2006 the Shi’ite population in southern Lebanon sought an association with Iran. And when Hamas was elected in Gaza, though they are not Shi’ite, again help from Iran was forthcoming. This was not the case with the PLO, nor is it the case with representation of Palestinians in the West Bank.
Iran hates Israel as an extension of the US, and basically has several massive axes to grind with he US going back to the days of the Shah who was a US puppet leader of Iran who terrorised the Iranian population every bit as much as the Ayatollahs who came after him. Back then there was one moderate and much loved Prime Minister who could have been the salvation of Iran, Mossadegh, who was overthrown by the CIA and British intelligence, in operation Ajax.
This then gave the Shah complete rule.
In 1979 the people had had enough and rose up against the Shah giving the Ayatollah a chance to take over. The rest is history.
It might surprise many to know that the majority of ordinary Iranians are not hardliners and the most pro European and pro US population in the ME, barring Israel.
Anyway that is a bit of background info if anyone finds it useful.

So sad about it and the innocents involved in these war machines....the cost is high in human and economic terms, yes -where will it end unless there are peace negotiations?

edition.cnn.com/2024/10/04/economy/israel-economy-war-impact/index.html

Thanks for that Babs03. You're right about Iraq - I got that wrong. The point really is that it's not a straightforward religious conflict. Lebanon, Gaza (and Yemen) are proxies for the Iran-Israel conflict.

I think I'm right in saying Iran and Iraq are very different places in terms of culture, language and just about everything. I'm ashamed to say, many years ago all I knew of Iran were images of ranting bearded men. Then I met my neighbours and broadened my outlook.

eggplant

I think I'm right in saying Iran and Iraq are very different places in terms of culture, language and just about everything. I'm ashamed to say, many years ago all I knew of Iran were images of ranting bearded men. Then I met my neighbours and broadened my outlook.

Iranians aren't Arabs for a start.

Thank You growstuff, I did know that. The Persian culture and language is of course entirely unique.

No, Iranians are not Arabs, but Indo-European, and the Kurds who live in Iran,Iraq, Turkey, and Syria are also Indo-European. Indeed Arab nations have often been their worst enemies, proved in recent history when Saddam went to war with Iran.
Is also true that despite accepting arms from Iran both Hamas and Hezbollah often make derogatory comments about Iran and ordinary Palestinians have conflicted opinions about them, many now are calling for Iran to back off. Tbh Palestinian mercenaries fought against at Iran in the Iran/Iraq war and many still lionise Saddam so this region really is a can of worms inside a can of worms.

As I have said Iran isn’t fighting this war simply to save the Palestinians and Lebanese people from the scourges of an IDF onslaught but to give an unequivocal message to the US.
My worry is that Israel has nukes and Netanyahu could be gung-ho enough to use them on Iran.

Babs03 isn’t it time that Iran received an unequivocal message - like butt out of this conflict? I think that’s the message which will go forward to stop even more innocent people dying. Quite frankly who cares what Iran and America think of each other? What has that got to do with Israel?

ronib

Babs03 isn’t it time that Iran received an unequivocal message - like butt out of this conflict? I think that’s the message which will go forward to stop even more innocent people dying. Quite frankly who cares what Iran and America think of each other? What has that got to do with Israel?

Unfortunately, the leaders of Iran and the US care - and they're the ones in control.

It doesn't have much to do with Israel (or Lebanon or Gaza or Yemen), which is why it's called a proxy war. It's about using puppets to fight wars on your behalf.

growstuff

eggplant

I think I'm right in saying Iran and Iraq are very different places in terms of culture, language and just about everything. I'm ashamed to say, many years ago all I knew of Iran were images of ranting bearded men. Then I met my neighbours and broadened my outlook.

Iranians aren't Arabs for a start.

Lebanese people do not class themselves as Arabs either .

Floradora9

growstuff

eggplant

I think I'm right in saying Iran and Iraq are very different places in terms of culture, language and just about everything. I'm ashamed to say, many years ago all I knew of Iran were images of ranting bearded men. Then I met my neighbours and broadened my outlook.

Iranians aren't Arabs for a start.

Lebanese people do not class themselves as Arabs either .

I know that Lebanese Christians, who make up about a third of the population of Lebanon, don't identify as Arabs, but I'm not sure about the Muslims in Lebanon. Genetically, they are Arabs. However, it's complicated. Many Jews share their DNA with Arabs, but they certainly wouldn't identify as Arabs.