Assisted dying

Without giving too much identifying information, I was in a situation where I should be terminal. A fellow patient informed me that in my situation they would commit suicide. I replied I was clinging on as long as I possibly could, the instinct to survive is strong and innate. Maybe because I had young children and she was a young single person it made a difference. Just you never know how you'll actually feel until you're faced with the problem. Theory is another world. If this legislation passes there will undoubtedly be people who feel pressured into the decision, and that is beyond sad.

To me, a choice someone makes when they are of sound mind and body, may change drastically when they're not.

Humans are very adaptable to all kinds of situations that they thought they could never cope with, and a diminished mind often means that things they found demeaning may now not be.

It's easy to say "I'd end it, or demand the right to", but that is sometimes enough, to know that there is that choice, and it means people will choose to keep living.

Having worked as a palliative care nurse for more than 20 years, it became clear that life is not about quantity but quality.
So when it comes to medically assisted dying, this should largely depend upon what one considers a tolerable quality of life once diagnosed with a terminal illness. Often symptoms can be controlled well when in the care of an experienced palliative nurse and knowledgeable consultant. However problems rise when there is a lack of understanding with regard to “holistic care” involving; physical, emotional, psychological and social aspects of the person. It’s not as simple as stopping physical pain when the psychological and emotional aspects are painful to the extreme. Many people simply want to have choice, and in knowing that you had that would choose to live as long as was tolerable. Currently people wanting assisted dying have to be well enough to be able to travel, which in turn means they bring their end date forward. If it were legal in this country this would delayed to the natural near ending of life. A death with respect for personal choice and dignity.
As a country I think we should all be given a vote on this very personal subject. This should not be left up to MPs to decide.

boheminan

Finally. New vote on assisted dying coming soon

What's your views?

It is not something I agree with. I consider it to be against my Christian faith.

I would like to say this:

If the Bill is made law, then the practice of hospital consultants to write on a patients file ; DO NOT RESCUSITATE (DNR)because the Bill says the patient has to agree to terminate their life, and most of those patients with that on their file are never consulted.

If such a Bill, when passed into law states that the patient must be given a choice, then that is for everyone, and someone should be appointed to go into hospitals and review those files. It would have to be confidential, between the review and the patient's relatives, but everyone should be given the choice.

I totally agree with assisted dying for myself …. It others have a different opinion…. If you think about it so many people commit suicide without anyone else involved ….. their choice ….. so my choice is to end my life with dignity on my own . I was told about MAID in Canada on a cruise whilst talking to some Canadian passengers…… such a shame that the UK is not in favour whilst hospices are closing because of lack of funds, palliative care and social care are NON EXISTENT thanks to govt underfunding … whilst the REALITY IS euthanasia IS practiced in hospital settings and care homes …. Remember the edict during COVID to send positive cases BACK to care homes depicts the old would die off as Boris put it !!!! I looked into joining DIGNITAS but if I paid the annual subscription and died before I could get there I would have to haunt them 🤣…..but the £15,000 plus two pre date visits to Zurich are expensive it is FAR CHEAPER than a care home at £8,000 a MONTH ….. until your money runs out…… and you are thrown out …..the whole system is underfunded and the promise of social care reform is not even on the agenda 😡

If assisted dying becomes the norm, how long will it be before you are considered to be a selfish nuisance if you don't comply.

B9exchange
I think it is telling that over 80% of doctors and over 80% of those working in palliative care are against assisted dying. Doctors went into the profession to try their best to heal people, with the motto engrained into their training of 'first do no harm'. Basically they don't want to be part of killing people!

The 80% relates (you claim) to doctors working in palliative care. It is not reflective of doctors overall where the support for assisted dying is far higher (BMA survey statistics available online).
I don't know the percentage of doctors working in palliative care but l would assume rather low.

B9exchange

I think it is telling that over 80% of doctors and over 80% of those working in palliative care are against assisted dying. Doctors went into the profession to try their best to heal people, with the motto engrained into their training of 'first do no harm'. Basically they don't want to be part of killing people! As a nurse many years ago we used to ease people out of this life if their pain became too much, it was never made common knowledge, and I believe that now patients and relatives are asked if they would like to be rendered unconscious in cases like this.

For me the problem of the slippery slope is insurmountable, and this is why the disabled are so against it. As with abortion, which started off with very strict criteria which were then gradually relaxed. I am all for abortion as long as it is not just used as birth control, but it seems that is effectively how it is being used now for many people.

You start off with limiting it to people judged to have less than six months to live, then you expand it to those with life limiting diseases, then to those with incurable diseases, then to adults with mental health problems, then children with mental health problems, until there are very few limits at all. If assisted dying goes through, no safeguards will prevent the expansion scope, as can be seen in countries who have started down this route.

To me it is the worry of coercion by relatives who don't want to see the house go in care fees, but more than that, just the feeling of guilt from those who feel they are becoming an expensive burden, and that it is their duty to request death to relieve others of that worry. If there was an option to save the bulk of my savings for the family, rather than spend it on care, I know that I would feel duty bound to take it.

This is a brilliant and thought provoking post, B9exchange. Thank you.

For most things in life we have a choice- but for some reason we don't want to give people a choice . I'm glad that some people have known their loved ones have a peaceful death but I fear it is the minority. My mother had a terrible death as the Dr refused to give her enough morphine DESPITE the hospital knowing she had a short time to live.
I don't think that people who are religious should be ignored as I remember a Minister saying he agreed with assisted dying. I have a strong belief and don't think that God would want anyone to suffer. YET Drs appear to want that.
I've written to my MP but I don't trust him to represent my views . how does an MP cast his vote - his choice or that of his constituents ? I think the country needs to vote and not a person who may never have known the burden of seeing someone suffer .

Not everyone has an extra pair of ears available to them.

theworriedwell: .......

I read that story as well, and also the other side of the story.

Frequently with sick/fragile folks, they don't hear all that is been said, but pick up on the parts that seem to alarm them the most.

**With a lot of more serious medical procedures we all go through, I think it's important to have an extra pair of ears with us.

I remember a lady in her early 70's in hospital for an operation being ask if she wanted a DNR [Do Not Resuscitate] on her chart.....This is now apparently a routine question in many hospitals. She was scared to death that they were going to kill her~~ poor soul !! Fortunately her friend was with her and they were able to explain what it was all about.

Philippa111

I am exited for this to come into law. I’ve been a supporter of assisted dying since I was young. My point has been that animals who are suffering can very gently be put to sleep painlessly and in a humane way. Humans however, no matter how much they are suffering, do not have this choice and can have an agonising end of life and can be left with no dignity at all . I watched the programme about a man who chose to go to Dignitas in Switzerland. It was a deeply moving film and ultimately it was not only the best outcome for the man who had no quality of life to look forward to and also for his family and friends who didn’t have the deep distress of watching the person they loved have s horrendous end to his life.
I just hope it gets into law soon so I that will have the option should I need it and be able to die at home and not have to go to another country to die.
People always mention that coercion and manipulation might happen but my response to that is if other countries can manage it are we so corrupt that we couldn’t manage it too. It’s not a valid reason and it leaves a lot of people in a horrendous state. I don’t think suffering should be obligatory!

I explained on another thread the horror of my beloved dog being put to sleep "painlessly" and how it wasn't at all how people describe it. I've read of the same situation with humane executions, it isn't always that humane. With my dog I suspect she had some sort of allergic reaction to the sedative and she went berserk, I can still hear the crack of her skull as we were unable to hold her and she crashed her skull on the floor.

I don't think anyone should feel they need to do this to spare their friends and relatives, that is truly awful.

Do you have any proof there isn't coercion in other countries?

I’ve done LPA finance and health. I need to somehow discuss DNR with my GP but my daughters, joint executors, know my wishes.
We were blessed to be with their father as he gradually died over 8 days. Today would be day 5. We would be living in a tiny private cubicle/ward on the stroke unit at our centre of excellence for stroke patients. He was stage 4 cancer. The strokes hadn’t removed that pain, he needed morphine. The care of him and us was superb but by day 6 one of his much loved girls was saying enough, why can’t the doctor help him like our vet helped our dogs.
I recognise the anxiety, the need for safeguards. I trusted the team caring for my husband, his wife and children.

Yes and to me, people with disabilities, people in abusive situations, women in particular, yes they are all valid reasons to me.

Love - I’m so sorry 💖

It's a very valid reason for me.

I am exited for this to come into law. I’ve been a supporter of assisted dying since I was young. My point has been that animals who are suffering can very gently be put to sleep painlessly and in a humane way. Humans however, no matter how much they are suffering, do not have this choice and can have an agonising end of life and can be left with no dignity at all . I watched the programme about a man who chose to go to Dignitas in Switzerland. It was a deeply moving film and ultimately it was not only the best outcome for the man who had no quality of life to look forward to and also for his family and friends who didn’t have the deep distress of watching the person they loved have s horrendous end to his life.
I just hope it gets into law soon so I that will have the option should I need it and be able to die at home and not have to go to another country to die.
People always mention that coercion and manipulation might happen but my response to that is if other countries can manage it are we so corrupt that we couldn’t manage it too. It’s not a valid reason and it leaves a lot of people in a horrendous state. I don’t think suffering should be obligatory!

Like some others I'm a member of Dignity in Dying and have had relatives use MAID in Canada. Most Canadians think it works very well WITH safeguards in place. I'm all for Assisted Dying and very much hope it is law by the time I will need it. I intend to write to my MP to urge her to vote for it.

If you've dementia, then there comes a time when you'll not have capacity, although people can have capacity in some things, but not others.

If you have full capacity, right until the end, though, well...

In cases of dementia, when will people opt to die? As soon as the diagnosis is confirmed, or a little later, or leave it too late and you'll not be capable of informed consent.
If you agree there has to be the option to "change your mind" right up until the last second, then an advance directive for dementia isn't possible as it eliminates that safeguard.

That’s the way it should be allowing the person to die with dignity

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202410/medium-635803-img-6351.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202410/medium-289161-img-6352.jpeg

I found this very, very moving..

It is about time a choice for human suffering. I hope it gets past.

I can understand many of the reasons that this has been supported by a lot of people, and I do think that there is a great danger of persuasion/coercion; Well - not just danger - more of a certainty.

However, what I fear most is my own self coercion. I absolutely hate asking people for help, and hate feeling that I'm being a bit of a burden, to the extent that I'm certain that , if I was relying more and more on family and friends when inconvenient,, I would choose to die, and pretend that it was what I wanted.
In fact that maybe true when the time comes... but what if it isn't?

GrannyGravy13

Excellent end of life care should be routinely accessible to all.

I have concerns around coercion.

Me, too. It would only be a matter of time until terminally ill people would be told how the cost of their treatment was taking money away from treatment of others etc. And you only have to look at what is going on in Canada and Holland to see how the 'innocent' sounding initial law has morphed into something quite different. People with terrible depression are allowed to decide to be 'helped' to die instead of being treated properly to help them live. And if you think of how much abortion law has changed from what it was to what it is now, you will see the dangers for yourselves....It's an absolute minefield!