Anniversary of Israeli massacre

ferry23

Ah dear - and this is why negotiations fail.

Why Fleurpepper did you have to jump in with an aggressive and accusatory post?

And anyway you miss the point - I'm not asking people to walk in Jewish people's shoes - unless you are a Jew you can't. Same for Palestinians - only they know what it's like to walk in their own shoes.

I've already said that my sympathies lie with the innocents as I'm absolutely sure do those of many, many people whatever their faith, or even if they have no faith.

Nothing aggressive or accusatory in my post.

As a human being, we can have empathy for people who are suffering, be it as individuals or as a group, without being that individual or part of that group. This is what makes us humans.

This is what made us denounce what happened to Jews (and others, gipsies (I am not one either), or mentally or physically handicapped people (I am not one either) at the time. And what makes some of us believe that what is happening to the Palestinian people, in 1948, 1967 and now, and every time in between, just inhumane and totally disproportionate retaliation. How is that considered 'aggressive'?

Even if one totally believes in a Jewish State, as I do- who gave the leaders of the Western world the right to take a people's land to give to another group of people. And then allow piecemeal annexation to go on for 66 years, closing blind eyes, and ignoring the system of Apartheid put in place.

Maybe the Western leaders who made the decision, should have decided to give some of our own land rather than taking from others. At least it would have been a bit fairer. Although I do believe that if natives of such land, who would have lost their native homes and livelyhoods without any compensation- would have objected and tried to regain their land- or at least any land taken after the initial loss.
Would we call them freedom fighters?

It's not just Israel that is starving the children of Gaza, it is also Egypt, Saudi and Jordan. Israel is quite at liberty to have a war with anyone it chooses and that is a matter for their political masters and the armed wing of Netanyahu. Men will always fight from here to eternity. Politically we can discuss calmly our opposition to war that is not in doubt. What is unacceptable is the killing of and detention of children, girls and women. The west rarely speaks in favour of civilian arabs being terrorised by settlers. the civilians are usually boys with stones or use colourful language against the occupiers.
They have enough capacity and capability to provide clean water, medicine, medical equipment and fast metabolism nutrition e.g. high energy oats and protein biscuits. They certainly should not be asking Israel for permission to enter. But hey Saudi is too busy organising concerts the other two neighbours are useless.

In 1948 the lands the British Protectorate called Palestine was already occupied by a mixture of Jewish, Arab, and some Christian peoples.

In theory they saw the establishment of Israel within part of those lands as giving both Jewish Peoples and Arab peoples a place to live their lives.

But of course very rapidly Israel was given full statehood but the "remainder" was still attached to Jordan and Egypt respectively and never given statehood.

And, starting thus, the long complex and often sad history of conflict and annexation and so on.

Iam64

Fleurpepper - please don’t accuse posters who acknowledge the truth in comments from ferry23’s /foxie and others, of not caring about Palestinian children. You sometimes seem to believe it’s your way or the highway where Israel - Palestine is concerned. It isn’t that simple or we wouldn’t be in this horror

Of course we care.

We care about all the innocents caught up in this, especially children.
To suggest otherwise is repugnant.

Wyllow3, I appreciate your posts about the meaning of Zionism and your later post at 14.31 about 1948 and history leading up to that and subsequently.
We need balance and a willingness to consider where we are now, not all this simplistic criticism of past decisions. The people involved in those decisions were not motivated by ill will

I should add the consequences of the sudden establishment of new boundaries in Palestine had all the hallmarks of the messy and sudden decisions of a British Empire "pulling out" without enough consideration.

(Like the India/Pakistan partition that led to the death of 1 million people)

When the British did the same establishing an Israeli Border, there was soon conflict which involved both the Israeli Army displacing Palestinians or people leaving of their own volition.
Known as the Nabka. Some Palestinians remained within the new Israeli boundaries.

wiki en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight

A very troubled start all round.

To get back to the here and now: its just come up on BBC newsfeed:

US warns Israel over Gaza aid as deadline nears

“Israel must immediately address the “catastrophic humanitarian situation” in Gaza, the US envoy to the UN has warned, as the deadline approaches to improve the flow of aid or face cuts to American military assistance.”

I do hope this decision will be reversed on humanitarian grounds. I honestly cant see the justification or indeed military need for it in terms of protecting Israel. Maybe I'm missing something.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2n4x9dlz7o

If Israel continue to hunt for Hamas that’s up to them, but they must let through sufficient food, water, and medical supplies, in my opinion.

It is a catastrophic humanitarian situation. I watched ch4 news last night, something I always did but have avoided recently. It’s almost unbearable to watch when feeling hopeless to influence events / politics/ disaster/intransigence and more

This is not a humanitarian situation. The idea the death and destruction is due to Kismet, chance, luck, act of god, rain, earthquake or accident etc is insulting to those who are logical in thought. Yes some Muslim supporting scholars (minority) propagate this idea that it's the will of some external force. Or they are suppressing public opinion. Experts at Chatham house feel that any short term peaceful non violent resolution is unlikely. Its taken Vietnam nearly 50 years after 8 years of peace negotiations ending in 73 and fall of saigon in 74. In Vietnam 0.38% of children were killed in Gaza excl WB and Lebanon its 0.9%.
The collateral damage est calc was not as good 50/60 years ago. So the IDF calcs on CDE questionable

The India Pakistan border dispute was caused by the British leaving with British aristocracy dividing the hindus and muslim. The seeds were germinated in 1857 when hindus and muslim resisted the British occupation. The occupiers were anything but stupid. They got their own back by making hindus react against muslims and vice versa. In any divisive conflict once you are put in a binary position you cannot be neutral. We see this today in Brexit and the US elections.

A glimmer of hope for a ceasefire on the Lebanese border.

I am not so naive as to hold out a lot of hope as negotiations seem to be with the Lebanese government, but any shaft of light is a relief to be held on to I feel. 🕊️

I couldn't find anything on it lixy but do so hope.

Meanwhile there are doubts about the Beit Lahia strike - this is the kind of strike where I have doubts about genuine Hamas Targets.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6247nwz73do

For those following, I found this CNN article of interest -if the military think the war has met aims?

edition.cnn.com/2024/10/31/middleeast/israel-military-leaders-gaza-lebanon-intl/index.html

Wyllow3

To get back to the here and now: its just come up on BBC newsfeed:

US warns Israel over Gaza aid as deadline nears

“Israel must immediately address the “catastrophic humanitarian situation” in Gaza, the US envoy to the UN has warned, as the deadline approaches to improve the flow of aid or face cuts to American military assistance.”

I do hope this decision will be reversed on humanitarian grounds. I honestly cant see the justification or indeed military need for it in terms of protecting Israel. Maybe I'm missing something.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2n4x9dlz7o

Sent to me by a friend

'It wasn't so long ago that many people who became Israelis were refugees themselves. Many more Jews depended on the goodwill of other countries after arriving as refugees. It was because of their plight that the world set up agencies such as UNWRA so that it would never happen again. It's happening again.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c14ln6kkkg7o

In relation to the US envoys returning to Lebanon , proposing a 60 day ceasefire.
Hope, always faint, is now vanishingly small.

According to the news today there has been a ceasefire so that children in the north of Gaza can received the second polio vaccinations.

Apparently 13 aid agencies are now saying that the situation is apocalyptic and that tens of thousands of Palestinians will die as a result of the appalling conditions.

I doubt the British encouraged violence at the partition of India/Pakistan. Our armed forces in India were simply inadequate after WW2 to intervene in the civil conflict.

Grantanow

I doubt the British encouraged violence at the partition of India/Pakistan. Our armed forces in India were simply inadequate after WW2 to intervene in the civil conflict.

I don’t hide from the complex issues caused by the British (or other) Empires. I find the suggestion that every negative was caused solely by the British because of deliberate malevolency just a tad irritating.

My mum and Dad remember partition. Mountbatten wasn't a beneficent leader, the Empire tried very hard to hold back the genuine desire for freedom, the Indian people found it frustrating to take orders from people who had different values and cultural beliefs. That incompatibility was only ever going to result in one outcome. The Muslims were never going to accept living under a Hindu led govt with substantial fundamentalists. There was only one muslim member and 2 minor deputies. It was a Hindu fundamentalist who killed Gandhi.
Cyril Radcliffe, when he drew the borders; he didn't have two amoebic cells to rub together. Just because he was a civil servant doesn't mean he was clever.
The tension pre-existed and once any society is faced with a binary choice and the "neutral" party.force becomes absent there is only ever going to be one outcome.

I agree Iam re not deliberate malevolency. When the British left Israel/Palestine they left a legacy of years of promises made for territory for both Arabs and Jewish people, and years of sporadic armed conflict breaking out particularly in the 1930's against each other and the British.

Malevolency does not have to be deliberate, it is usually unspoken or realised unintended strategy by those in power.
The civil service are experts, as per the satirical comedy "Yes Prime Minister....."
Actions have consequences, negative consequences cause conflict, if promises are not realised during a resolution those who are likely to lose (or have lost) cause the most reaction. Those who are privileged and/or dominant then consolidate their position, most do it proportionately. Trump and Netanyahu (potentially genocidal war criminal) are malevolent people both have been charged and tried the former a convict the latter indicted, neither men should have ANY legitimacy to govern according to their own laws.

Actually you have no idea who will be seen as the most malevolent in the future. It is rarely who we think it will be. Otherwise those in the past wouldnt get things wrong.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqj07jdzzgno

Netanyahu has fired Gallant - immediate demonstrations:

"The sacking has already prompted protests on the streets of Tel Aviv and political opposition leaders have called for wider public demonstrations.

Netanyahu and Gallant have long had a divisive working relationship, and over the past year there have been reports of shouting matches between the two men over Israel’s war strategy.

Gallant has said a hostage release deal with Hamas should be prioritised ahead of continuing the war in Gaza, a position rejected by the PM."

Its a move towards not only a harder line but also Gallant is against the changes Netanyahu wants that takes power away from the judiciary.

I think a Nuremberg style trial for the entire cabinet and IDF would be appropriate. I mean who deliberately kills children on multiple occasions and OK if you have to kill why vaporise them and not allow bodies for ritual burials. Oxfam has a done an excellent report on the suffering in Gaza. Agnes Callamard of Amnesty has eluded to this in specific detail. May be we should have a day of remembrance for Gaza.