Anniversary of Israeli massacre

www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2024/10/24/taking-direct-action-against-genocide/

They attribute the Hamas Attack on Israel the fault of Israel,

Some far left American Jewishvoiceforpeace

@annie whether right or left politically surely Jewish people’s opinions on Israel should be given consideration.

Yes, but facts matter, you believe Israel are to blame for the October attack by Hamas ?

@annie is not for me to decide whether these people’s opinions are right or wrong was simply pointing out that there are many Jewish people who disagree with Netanyahu because there seems to be an accusation levelled at anyone who mentions that there are many Jews who do feel like this that they don’t know enough Jewish people personally to make this assertion.

Babs03

@annie is not for me to decide whether these people’s opinions are right or wrong was simply pointing out that there are many Jewish people who disagree with Netanyahu because there seems to be an accusation levelled at anyone who mentions that there are many Jews who do feel like this that they don’t know enough Jewish people personally to make this assertion.

Babs03 - this is undoubtedly a very sensitive subject, and very close to home for some Gransnetters.

Of course there are members of the Jewish community who disagree with Netanyahu's actions, just as there are many who hold different views.

But with the greatest of respect, as you are clearly a well informed and articulate person, there is very much a smug "I know better than you do" tone to a lot of posts on here from a few posters. There have been some downright nasty and offensive posts. Opinions, whether your own or those of the press are just that, opinions, not facts. Going down the "majority of people" or "thousands of Jews" route is only going to anger and inflame yet you all continue to post in this vein.

Non Jews who post here have no idea of how difficult and distressing life can sometimes be for Jewish people. Anti-Semitism is with them from the cradle to the grave in one form or another, be it overt or covert. Be it spoken or tacit. So of course they are going to stand up for themselves and their fellow Jews when they are constantly bombarded with negative posts.

And of course we know that criticising Israel is not necessarily as criticism of Jews, the two can be mutually exclusive. But Israel and Jews are inexorably linked. It's a bit like criticising someone else's child for doing something wrong. The parent might know that perhaps the child has stepped out of line but they will defend them with their life. They are linked - it's part of their DNA!

A previous poster wrote on here that Jews are always blamed for everything - and ain't that the truth. But you can only really know that when you have walked a mile in Jewish shoes.

And you haven't.

Thank you ferry23 for a perceptive comment.👏🏻👏🏻

Oreo

Thank you ferry23 for a perceptive comment.👏🏻👏🏻

I agree. Very well put ferry23.

Thank you ferry28

@ferry23 you are right I haven’t walked in the shoes of a Jewish person.
But to suppose others don’t have skin in the game is also naive and rather smug.
As I stated a long time ago before leaving the thread because I was personally too offended to continue for some time, we have family in Lebanon, they are presently in the mountains laying low and one of them has already lost his home and livelihood but they are just glad to be alive.
That is all I want to say on the matter. I really don’t want to drag them into this debate just to use them as a prop for my arguments. So above and beyond saying this ‘they’ are not up for discussion.

"And of course we know that criticising Israel is not necessarily as criticism of Jews, the two can be mutually exclusive. But Israel and Jews are inexorably linked. It's a bit like criticising someone else's child for doing something wrong. The parent might know that perhaps the child has stepped out of line but they will defend them with their life. They are linked - it's part of their DNA!"

Thank you for recognising that being critical of the actions of the Israeli government and in particular, Netanyahu, is not anti semitic. I'm afraid there has been an attempt to link the two and often it has felt like an attempt to shut down discussion.
However, I'm afraid I have to take issue with the second part of the part of the above post. I've always believed that being a responsible "parent" (to use your metaphor) is to chide my child when it's on the wrong path and to support him/her when wrongly accused by others of wrong doing. There are Jews in Israel and in the Jewish Diaspora who are critical of the way the war is being waged in Gaza and of the actions of the Netanyahu government. There is also widely documented reports which questions the response by the IDF to the vile events of 07/10 however, the Netanyahu government has refused to answer them.

"Asked whether they agree with the statement, “I sometimes find it hard to support actions taken by Israel or its government,” 62% of Jewish respondents said they agreed and 34% did not."
www.timesofisrael.com/poll-months-into-gaza-war-most-us-jews-feel-close-to-israel-not-its-government/

Support for the war by US Jews is also mixed.
theconversation.com/for-many-american-jews-protesting-for-palestinians-activism-is-a-journey-rooted-in-their-jewish-values-229228

ferry23
Very well summed up.

When things are "quiet" (and I put that in inverted commas as quiet is a relative term when referring to parts of the Middle East) many Jews and non-Jews in Israel and probably particularly in Jerusalem, work together, neighbour each other, play together and support each other. They really do.

I can't imagine any decent human being regardless of their colour, faith, beliefs, wants to witness the level of human suffering that is prevalent not only in the Middle East right now, but across so many parts of the world. I don't, and I despair that people are having to live under such appalling conditions, in fear, separated from their loved ones, losing their homes, their livelihoods, members of their family and their friends.

In conflict, it's always the innocents who suffer the most.

We're supposed to learn from history, but I don't think we have. Man's inhumanity to his fellow man is incomprehensible at times.

Babs03

@ferry23 you are right I haven’t walked in the shoes of a Jewish person.
But to suppose others don’t have skin in the game is also naive and rather smug.
As I stated a long time ago before leaving the thread because I was personally too offended to continue for some time, we have family in Lebanon, they are presently in the mountains laying low and one of them has already lost his home and livelihood but they are just glad to be alive.
That is all I want to say on the matter. I really don’t want to drag them into this debate just to use them as a prop for my arguments. So above and beyond saying this ‘they’ are not up for discussion.

I wonder if some here have tried to walk in the shoes of Palestinian people, or children (they probably have none at the moment).

Fleurpepper - please don’t accuse posters who acknowledge the truth in comments from ferry23’s /foxie and others, of not caring about Palestinian children. You sometimes seem to believe it’s your way or the highway where Israel - Palestine is concerned. It isn’t that simple or we wouldn’t be in this horror

Ah dear - and this is why negotiations fail.

Why Fleurpepper did you have to jump in with an aggressive and accusatory post?

And anyway you miss the point - I'm not asking people to walk in Jewish people's shoes - unless you are a Jew you can't. Same for Palestinians - only they know what it's like to walk in their own shoes.

I've already said that my sympathies lie with the innocents as I'm absolutely sure do those of many, many people whatever their faith, or even if they have no faith.

The Zionist entity ban on UNRWA and independent apolitical UN agency, originally created with the backing of Israel is nothing short of Nazi and fascist style behaviour. There has been no proof that UNRWA has been involved in bad behaviour, no independent court has ruled suchlike and no independent journalist has established any links. Even the hoodwinked supporters of the Zionist state have said such news.sky.com/video/us-and-uk-criticise-israels-decision-to-ban-un-palestinian-aid-agency-13243838
When Iraq wanted to pause the UN inspection team, the US wanted to go war here Israel banned legitimate organisation and women and children are starving. Nothing justifies the killing of innocent men women and children.
My only concern remains the women and children. They still sing to be free and not live under zionist occupation. May god be with them and may we all live in peace and harmony.

Am I alone in finding constant attempts to call Israeli s Nazi offensive? Criticise their actions but linking them to Nazis seems to me to be wrong.

Well yes me too but to be honest the words nazi and fascist have been so devalued that I dont hear them anymore.

Iam64

Am I alone in finding constant attempts to call Israeli s Nazi offensive? Criticise their actions but linking them to Nazis seems to me to be wrong.

No, you are not alone. It is quite wrong.

Kalm I think using that terminology only means it's harder to "hear" your points.

The other point I'd like to make regards the term "Zionism" because in my reading/discussions I've found a broad range of views under that headline, ranging from supporting the State of Israel as it originally was border wise, to the extreme expansionist view.

Quote Iam64 Tue 29-Oct-24 12:20:07
Am I alone in finding constant attempts to call Israeli s Nazi offensive? Criticise their actions but linking them to Nazis seems to me to be wrong.

It is wrong,

Is wrong to use the word Nazi and wrong to conflate Jewish suffrage/antisemitism with Israeli politics. Both are just going to close down any further debate.
Balance is called for.
And being deeply disturbed by aid distributed by UNWRA being banned by the Israeli government is completely understandable indeed the only way to feel about it. This will undoubtedly ensure that Palestinians will starve and die from preventable diseases which is totally unacceptable in any scenario no matter who is involved in the conflict. Have seen children and babies reduced to skeletons, in the name of whatever God people believe in this is barbaric and has to stop. Doesn’t matter who is doing what to the other side, that aid has to be delivered or humanity has well and truly left the building.

I find the banning of UNWRA disgraceful and indefensible by new laws passed last night:

This is what UNWRA does: (quotes from BBC news feed)

The UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (Unrwa) was established in 1949 to carry out direct relief and social services for Jewish and Palestinian refugees following the 1948 conflict which led to the founding of Israel and expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.
The UN General Assembly most recently extended its mandate until 30 June 2026.

Here's a brief look at what it does.

Approximately 5.9 million displaced Palestinians, a third of whom live in refugee camps in the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and East Jerusalem as well as in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, areeligible for Unrwa services

The agency serves around 1.7 million Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip and 870,000 in in the West Bank and East Jerusalem
The agency provides a wide range of aid and services including healthcare, shelter, food and education
It is also an important source of employment for Palestinian refugees, who make up most of its more than 30,000 employees in the region.

It has been described by the United States as "irreplaceable" in enabling the delivery of aid to displaced Palestinians

Its not the sole aid agency, but the main one.

I can't understand how any decent human being could agree to aid being banned to the Palestinians. It is cruel and vindictive.

amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/06/25/middleeast/israel-gaza-children-starvation-malnutrition-intl

And this was all the way back in June is much worse now.