The SNP are telling us there are 24 genders.

HousePlantQueen

Why does everyone in here fret about men putting on a frock and going into female toilets? As a woman, I can identify as male and go into the gents toilets. Next time I am in a long queue for the facilities, I may do so. Grim choice though.

Oh bloody hell! I have identified as Disabled when nearly having an accident.

The list was attached last week to guidance for public bodies in Scotland who collect data on sex and gender. It allows them to classify freehand answers given to questions about trans status.

But it comes after First Minister John Swinney in July confirmed there were only two genders.

2? 24? Or anything in between? Feel free to choose.

jasper16

HousePlantQueen

Why does everyone in here fret about men putting on a frock and going into female toilets? As a woman, I can identify as male and go into the gents toilets. Next time I am in a long queue for the facilities, I may do so. Grim choice though.

Oh bloody hell! I have identified as Disabled when nearly having an accident.

It's not always easy to get up from some loos so ones with a grab handle next to them are useful.

It’s a dog’s dinner isn’t it?
The SNP have better topics to address surely? The ferries debacle for one. The drugs crisis.
Talk about rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic (whilst getting paid for it too).

Doodledog I totally agree with you ( a first?)

FriedGreenTomatoes2

It’s a dog’s dinner isn’t it?
The SNP have better topics to address surely? The ferries debacle for one. The drugs crisis.
Talk about rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic (whilst getting paid for it too).

I agree

jasper16

I suppose if you are not interested in something or disagree, you can always ignore it?

It must be exhausting.

That is not always a good move. If you have no children, and so are not interested in the safety of playground equipment, you might ignore the state of the rusted swings and climbing frame in the park near you, but if you then become a mother (or father) and your child is injured by that climbing frame, you would find yourself saying "Someone should have foreseen that a child would come to harm because of that!"

I agree too, but suspect a lot of time hasn't been put into this - smacks of someone asked to prepare a survey for data collection in a hurry - I don't see it either serving much purpose or is really taking much time away from the key issues mentioned.

Not thought through at all.

This sounds like a rather pointless list. Why don’t we just say there isn’t a one size fits all when it comes to sexuality, why apply labels?
People can be what they want and do what they want as long as they are not harming anyone and are only doing it with consenting adults but I don’t really need to know all about it. Too much information as they say.
But as for men who just like to dress as women going into women only spaces, I doubt that would happen, though it could happen with men who have had the op to become a woman. When I worked in a charity shop a man who liked to dress as a woman would come in to buy clothes and shoes and always asked our opinion. He explained that he didn’t see himself as a woman but just liked to dress up as one and put on all the slap. So I doubt men like him would barge into women’s toilets etc.

Just to add I do believe that women only spaces should be women only, we need safe spaces.

Babs I think it could happen the other way round to your scenario - that men who want to go into women-only spaces in the hope of seeing women in a state of undress, or for even worse motives, could dress up as women believing that they would not be challenged if they were thought to be trans.

That was my reaction to the first news that legislation was planned on the subject. Young men "out for a laugh" and probably in pairs, daring each other on, were what I was mostly envisaging, but men with darker intentions or obsessions could use the change in attitudes to women's spaces as a cover.

I have read that just building toilets (not even ones just for women) in some rural villages in Africa has lessened the number of girls and women assaulted or raped. When they had to go out into the bush, they were vulnerable to predatory men.

Babs03 this is not about sexuality. Many transwomen claim to be lesbians, who are attracted to women. So basically they are straight men. The idea that transwomen are gay men who are more 'female' than male is well out of date.

Mostly it seems to be about power. If a lesbian (obviously a woman who is attracted to other women) doesn't want to have sex with a transwoman (a man) she risks being accused of transphobia and is abused.

Straight men claiming to be transwomen when accused of crimes so they can get into women's prisons are another case in point. If someone has sexually assaulted women, that does suggest that their sexuality is (perverted) heterosexual, and more to the point suggests that they should never be locked up with female prisoners.

Many gay people are sick of their sexuality being conflated with the trans movement, and of the T in LGBT(QI+). Gender is about the way society expects people to behave, based on their sex. Sex is biologically determined. Sexuality is about attraction. They are very different terms, but are increasingly being conflated, perhaps to confuse people.

Taking over the language is always a way that dictators get power. Ask a trans activist what a woman is, and if you get an answer at all, it will be a million miles from the definition that has served us all for millennia - an adult human female. Instead, women are 'vagina havers', 'cervix havers', 'birth givers' and so on. Or worse 'non-transwomen', 'non-men'. The male is always centralised, and women seen in terms of our relationship to that. I fear for our daughters and granddaughters.

Elegran

I have read that just building toilets (not even ones just for women) in some rural villages in Africa has lessened the number of girls and women assaulted or raped. When they had to go out into the bush, they were vulnerable to predatory men.

Oh those bloody predatory men, perhaps instead of women having to feel fear and distrust all their lives either peeing in the bush or using women only spaces that could be breached, those bloody predatory men should be dealt with in he societies they live in and boys should be brought up not to be a bloody predatory man.
They are a menace worldwide 😡

@doodledog I hear you and agree that this is again men dictating the rules so they can have what they want without any consequences. And the younger generation are accepting this as a new more accepting age. But I also fear for women now being forced into unsafe situations or environments or called transphobic etc

Well - I’m gobsmacked. Apologies I’m lost for words. I’ll leave it with Doodledog who as ever is articulate and spot on

I can’t even say thanks for this FriedGreenToms - it’s given me a bit of a headache

When this data is collected, who is going to use it and to do what? Are resources going to be channeled towards one of the 24 ‘genders’, or are they going to be placed in a hierarchy of ‘most vulnerable groups in society’? I really don’t see the point of any of this.

Doodledog

When this data is collected, who is going to use it and to do what? Are resources going to be channeled towards one of the 24 ‘genders’, or are they going to be placed in a hierarchy of ‘most vulnerable groups in society’? I really don’t see the point of any of this.

I don't see the point either.

Its not collecting data towards a policy, its a questionnaire that can, if an organisation if it wants, (ie it isnt "required") collect data on the kind of gender ID an individual wants to "tick box" - no one has to answer - its unrelated to policy making

- all its done is an own goal for the SNP and headlines which don't actually help as far as I can see resolve questions on toilets and so on.

jasper16

I suppose if you are not interested in something or disagree, you can always ignore it?

It must be exhausting.

It will be hard if you have to share a changing room, I have to catheterise, I don’t fancy doing that, if there’s a he/ she in the loo Nextdoor. I think they should make extra toilets for these special people

There are gender neutral toilets in a fair few public buildings and theatres in London and Brighton. But of course us an added cost that many councils or private enterprises may not be able to afford.

Doodledog

What does 'behave as a woman' mean, David?

Whatever answer someone comes up with it will be different from how women behaved 100 years ago, and how they behave in other cultures. However far back you go, and however far away, women are female and men are male, however. Gender is not fixed, it is constructed. Sex is biological.

If a man wants to wear a dress, he can crack on, as far as I'm concerned, but wearing it doesn't give him a right to enter spaces reserved for women and girls. If we allow that, we have effectively erased the protection that feminists fought for, and have removed the right to privacy and dignity when naked, ill, restricted in movement or otherwise vulnerable for all women and girls. If anyone thinks that is ok, as mens' 'feelings' are more important than women's safety, I would ask them why they think these spaces were introduced in the first place?

We can all go to the pub, sit on a train, walk in the park wearing what we like and that's fine, but hospitals, changing rooms, prisons, care homes and DV hostels are different because they house vulnerable women and girls and should be off limits for men, however they 'present' themselves.

Well put 👍🏻

I know this list is bonkers, will be dismissed by the majority but, could omitting to encourage people to ID this way lead to disciplinary? I know crackers .

TerriBull

I think some men, when using urinals may not want random women passing through their private spaces, although having said that, much of these new phenomenons barely impact on them. It is mainly women who bear the brunt.

Regarding toilets and changing rooms, it is a fact that young and adolescent girls will visit the women's toilets, be in changing rooms unaccompanied and may feel very. very uncomfortable to see an obvious male dressed as a woman. Anyone remember the Eddie Izzard debacle where he got into a slanging match with a couple of teenage schoolgirls who challenged his right to be in the female loos? They didn't know who he was and felt he could be a threat to them. Maybe using changing rooms focuses the mind, I've been a member of various health clubs for years. I think it would be unacceptable to the majority of women to have an intact male in an area where they and children are often in the state of undress. I have also gone to mine in the afternoon when it's sometimes quiet, occasionally I have been the only one there, with that in mind who wants to emerge from a shower to find a person of the opposite sex in that area, alarming is my thought! As others have said, it is not about how anyone chooses to identify, that is their prerogative, but it is how that may impact on women in the context of areas that should pertain to us. I have read about American sportswomen who have challenged the presence of an intact trans woman in such a situation and they are then told "go change in the toilets" and resulting scenarios see the trans woman having an entire changing room to themselves whilst their female competitors are crammed into the loos because they had the temerity to say they felt uncomfortable, anyone who thinks that's reasonable is bowing to unreasonable pressure of over entitled people imo.

Our local council stopped the female only days for the sauna, I stopped going, they also introduced mixed changing rooms (under the guise) of a “changing village” I never went back to our gym.

Usually the Ladies, which already has baby changing facilities and a unisex disabled loo gets co-opted as a ‘gender-neutral’ option. As women (the ones without penises anyway) have to remove clothing, sit down, perform, wipe, replace clothing, stand up before leaving the cubicle it already takes us longer in there. Men don’t even have to go to a cubicle to wee, so why can’t they accommodate the women with penises? Could it be power games again? Or the AGP fetish that relies on the fantasy that transwomen are indistinguishable from the real thing? 🤔

It’s just the SNP doing what they do best, rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.