Amsterdam attacks

Wyllow3

"For me, it isn't a competition, and I'm not looking to score points.
What is being discussed is here too important for that.
Just to be clear"

Thank you for that.

I'm not quite sure (I might be really wrong)

that the backgrounds of people laying in the actual teams makes a lot of difference between the points of discussion as regards both the behaviours of the Maccobi fans and the pro-Palestinian attackers?

Probably not!

escaped

Rosie51

escaped I hope you don't think I'm making light of this discussion. I was just pointing out that the average person will not be au fait with the teams mentioned and will likely think of them as Jewish teams and their supporters too. I also have some Jewish family without being Jewish myself, I'm from the male line that married out.

👍 not at all Rosie51. I think we pretty much sing from the same sheet.
I agree that mentioning the names of random Arab players in an Israeli team is taking Google research a bit far. Are they Muslims, I've no idea. What I was saying is, why even bother to mention them when players' names aren't also given?

The ones playing in the national team are Israeli-born Muslims or Druze. The players in the individual teams can be bought in from anywhere in the world.

PS. I didn't have to do much Googling. My partner is a football fanatic with an encyclopaedic knowledge about many teams. he knew of the 'ultras' connected to Maccabi Tel Aviv because they're renowned, so I just had to Google the names of the players they've abused. They are the 'Millwall' of Israel.

Rosie51

growstuff

Rosie51 There was more than vile chanting. The Maccabi Tel Aviv fans attacked the taxi driver and his car with a chain. They had tooled themselves up before there was any retaliation. The time stamps on some of the published videos and witnesses have shown pretty conclusively the sequence of events.

Sorry, my post obviously didn't make it clear that I was referencing the protest chants and Israel flag burning that happens in the UK. I don't think you'd accept that as an excuse for physical violence against Muslims, but maybe to be fair you would.

Until all the evidence is available it's impossible to ascertain the framework of the incidents. How many attacked the taxi driver and does that make all Maccabi fans guilty? Were the pro Palestinian participants sure they only targeted the guilty? Did they even care or was being Jewish guilt enough?

No Rosie51 I don't accept racist chanting or flag-burning and I don't condone any retaliatory violence. I resent the suggestion that I would (but sneering has become so commonplace).

My interest in this is not so much to 'blame' either side, but to observe the biased reporting and agenda of that reporting.

PS. Have you ever been to a football match to know how the hooliganism (usually fuelled by drugs and/or alcoholism) escalates?

PPS. I'm leaving this thread, but not before posting one of the chants from Liverpool FC:

Mo Salah, la, la, la, la,
La, la, la, la, la, la,

Mo Salah, la, la, la, la,
La, la, la, la, la, la,

If he's good enough for you,
He's good enough for me,
If he scores another few then I'll be Muslim too,
If he's good enough for you,
He's good enough for me,
Then sitting in a mosque is where I wanna be...
(Repeated...)

growstuff Most people do not have a partner with an encyclopaedic knowledge of the world's football teams who has imparted said knowledge to them. Hence many, probably most, people will likely be under the impression the teams we're referring to are 'Jewish teams'. Surely you see that?

Not sure what the purpose of you posting the Liverpool chant is??

Nothing about antisemitism in that alleged Liverpool chant

Sounds like they really like Salah to me.😃

Anniebach

Nothing about antisemitism in that alleged Liverpool chant

But a lot about sentiments towards Muslims.

I can't speak for her but think the point that Growstuff was trying to make is that sadly we live in a world where racism can and is expressed by football supporters, which is part of the discussion on this thread.

Rosie51

growstuff Most people do not have a partner with an encyclopaedic knowledge of the world's football teams who has imparted said knowledge to them. Hence many, probably most, people will likely be under the impression the teams we're referring to are 'Jewish teams'. Surely you see that?

Indeed! There are too many people who equate Israel with Jewishness. Hopefully, they're now better informed.

Ooops! Just remembered I'd cancelled this thread! Ah well!

Actually many players' religious affiliations are not publicly disclosed. Is it important?
Why are we discussing whether individual team players, most of whom we have never heard of, are Muslim, Druze or whatever?

I have no interest in football but am a rugby lover, have never
gone to a rugby match and wanted to know what a teams religious affiliations are or even wondered

In relationship to Amsterdam, it's not directly relevant.

(If there was a thread on footie players and all kinds of racism, there is lots of material)

O/P speaks of antisemitism

escaped

Actually many players' religious affiliations are not publicly disclosed. Is it important?
Why are we discussing whether individual team players, most of whom we have never heard of, are Muslim, Druze or whatever?

Because somebody called Maccabi Tel Aviv a Jewish team. In case people need reminding, Israel and Jewishness are not the same thing. Maybe if more people took that into account, discussions about antisemitism would be more honest.

Wyllow3

Anniebach

Nothing about antisemitism in that alleged Liverpool chant

But a lot about sentiments towards Muslims.

I can't speak for her but think the point that Growstuff was trying to make is that sadly we live in a world where racism can and is expressed by football supporters, which is part of the discussion on this thread.

I actually get dragged along to football matches about once a month and my TV, which I hardly ever watch, seems to be permanently tuned into football matches.

Racism is rife amongst certain football fans, particularly in countries other than the UK (although it's not absent even in the UK and the FA's efforts).

I posted the Salah chant because I'm a huge Salah fan. Not only is he a fantastic footballer, but he's an all-round 'good guy', who is very public about his religious beliefs. He kisses the ground whenever he scores a goal (which is often) and his wife is usually seen at matches wearing a headscarf. More than that, there have been academic studies showing that Salah has been responsible for a drop in anti-Muslim hate incidents amongst Liverpool fans. He's become a cult hero. Ironically, a previous Liverpool player who also became a cult hero was Ronnie Rosenthal, who is an Israeli Jew.

The point I'm trying to make is that being a football doesn't imply being racist, but there is a handful of teams which are known for a group of their fans being racist, which sometimes (as in the case of Maccabi Tel Aviv) becomes political.

I still object very strongly to the violence in Amsterdam being framed as 'antisemitic attacks' without the full context being reported.

I don't think antisemitism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, ageism, in fact all the isms and phobias, will ever be eradicated. They seem to be a part of the bafflingly illogical human reasoning process. Animals don't tend to develop "isms", so I can only surmise that it has something to do with the ability to think in abstract terms, rather than reacting to our immediate circumstances. Is there an answer? I wish someone would come up with one, but I'm not holding my breath (especially in this age of "cancellation").

Over 73% living in Israel are Jews 😃Just for further clarification.

The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the re-establishment of the Jewish state, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations.
www.pbs.org › truman-israel

Anniebach

The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the re-establishment of the Jewish state, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations.
www.pbs.org › truman-israel

I suspect most people know that Anniebach, but it still doesn't give anybody an excuse to go round chanting about f*cking their 'enemies', imploring their army to kill them or goading people about having killed their children.

growstuff Fri 15-Nov-24 16:02:59
escaped
Actually many players' religious affiliations are not publicly disclosed. Is it important?
Why are we discussing whether individual team players, most of whom we have never heard of, are Muslim, Druze or whatever?
Because somebody called Maccabi Tel Aviv a Jewish team. In case people need reminding, Israel and Jewishness are not the same thing. Maybe if more people took that into account, discussions about antisemitism would be more hones

growstuff

Anniebach

The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the re-establishment of the Jewish state, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations.
www.pbs.org › truman-israel

I suspect most people know that Anniebach, but it still doesn't give anybody an excuse to go round chanting about f*cking their 'enemies', imploring their army to kill them or goading people about having killed their children.

It doesn’t but football fans chant about their enemies as you know.They are also still shocked by the incursion and murders of over 1,000 of sleeping families and young people at a music festival and 200 hostages taken with many of them murdered too by the government hamas and their supporters.
In an ideal world nobody would do anything to anyone but Jews won’t take anything done to them now.You need to understand that.

Good post Oreo.

In addition I think six million Jews murdered in WW2 has given them the impetus to say never again and they mean it.

Oreo

growstuff

Anniebach

The Nazi holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the re-establishment of the Jewish state, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations.
www.pbs.org › truman-israel

I suspect most people know that Anniebach, but it still doesn't give anybody an excuse to go round chanting about f*cking their 'enemies', imploring their army to kill them or goading people about having killed their children.

It doesn’t but football fans chant about their enemies as you know.They are also still shocked by the incursion and murders of over 1,000 of sleeping families and young people at a music festival and 200 hostages taken with many of them murdered too by the government hamas and their supporters.
In an ideal world nobody would do anything to anyone but Jews won’t take anything done to them now.You need to understand that.

Maccabi Tel Aviv ultras were chanting this kind of muck before the Hamas attack. At one match against a Greek (I think) team, they chanted about raping Arab women and drinking their blood when they're dead. There is absolutely no excuse for that. They even taunt their own non-Jewish players. It's unadulterated racism. The Israeli FA should be taking action against them.