Should Justin Welby resign?

Mollygo

^If they do not, the Church of England will lose any shreds of credibility they may have left.^
So that will be both the main religions without any credibility.

So we should protect the clergy of the C of E in case they become "as bad" as the Catholics?

Why does it leave both main Christian churches without any credibility if there is a massive purge and new people officiate who aren't guilty?

From a World view , Anglicans are not a main Christian group as they only make up small part of other Protestant churches. (see pic)

If I was a teacher who covered abuse, I would not expect the headmaster to take the blame. Same with this crooked clerics. They can hold onto their positions and complacently allow JW to carry the can, but surely their consciences are telling them something else? Even if not, they cannot be sure that the abused won't out them.

00opsidia

^ So we should protect the clergy of the C of E in case they become "as bad" as the Catholics?^

What an horrific suggestion. I’m sorry to hear you think that. I certainly never suggested it.

Mollygo

00opsidia

^ So we should protect the clergy of the C of E in case they become "as bad" as the Catholics?^

What an horrific suggestion. I’m sorry to hear you think that. I certainly never suggested it.

Sorry I have read your comment again and realise I'd read it wrong! I think we are in agreement, then.

It's clear that there were more involved who could be deemed as not taking adequate responsibility and leave their post.

But who decides? What can the process be
Is it a police matter? Is it an internal matter, and if so, how conducted?

Or is it a matter of conscience? I should think there are some whose consciences are weighing them down as a sign they need to come clean.

I really do think it would be less shameful to confess and stand down than live in fear of the abused victims naming them.

It's really hard to believe that the vicar at Smyth's church before he was sent to Africa did not know. Yet he is now a Bishop in the same Diocese! There are definitely others who should do the right thing. I am still reading the Makin report, so I can't say more yet.

Obviously the Colmans have done the right thing in admitting their involvement. I don't condone their involvement, yet I also see that if they had been friends with Smyth's wife and known the kids, they would have wanted to help provide for them (or found it difficult to say no to Smyth) .

There are apparently thirty more who may need to stand down.

Is this the "30"? This article outlines a process currently taking place.

www.yahoo.com/news/more-30-church-officials-face-202240047.html

"More than 30 Church officials face the sack after Archbishop of Canterbury quits"

but its not entirely clear how many others.

If there is to be a process I hope it has clear guidelines because its very distressing for so many in so many ways.

Yes, I'd imagine so.
It's quite hard to sort it into order, isn't it?
I gave up, but think I saw a news article about the 30.

I was just hoping nobody wanted a link.

There would potentially be more, but some might have gone to hell already. The ones left are fortunate because although they will be embarassed, they have a chance to repent.

Others who were funding Smyth to live in Africa probably werent vicars, but congregation, thinking they were funding a mission to Africa. A painful error, but how could they know they were hoodwinked if the church had endorsed the move there?

Is it classed as repentance if they jump before they are pushed?

No it classes as repentance if they truly repent. But they would need to confess first. And then they'd need to leave. But that would all take courage and a sense of right and wrong.

Trouble is, they have overridden their consciences so long that they may need to sit tight until someone else tells on them.

That's what they seem to be doing.
Sitting tight and hoping they may just get away with it. (Whatever 'it' turns out to be)

What matters is what will bring most help for the victims, whatever that is: faux repentance won't.

that those who knew enough and had enough power to have acted to go, and that measures in place so it won't happen again.

Whatever "it" turns out to be, yes. Or waiting for the axe to fall.

I definitely agree with you Wyllow3 that faux repentance won't help, it needs to be heartfelt and genuine or not at all. I didn't ever mean faux.

I wonder how many people sent money to support Smyth on his "missions". Every year he visited the church he had attended to drum up more support for his "missions" to Africa. They were a wealthy congregation and many were willing to donate, believing that they were helping convert people in Africa. I feel sorry for them, now finding out that their money was used to facilitate abuse. He used people, they were all his victims. It's so much worse that clergy KNEW and allowed all of this to happen.

I'm concerned there may be more incidences. What if there are more "Smyth's" and more cover ups within the ranks of the C of E? (Thinking of other religious men who went to far away places, supported by the church!)

I agree with you Wyllow3, those who knew and had enough power need to GO and there need to be new people in office with new and better measures in place so it never happens again.

So many parallels between the PO and this latest scandal about wrong doing in the CofE. It’s becoming clear many fairly senior people inside both organisations apparently thought the overriding most critical issue was to protect ‘the Brand’ at all and any cost.

Shame on such thinking!

I don't believe in a witch hunt. I was trying to explain what I thought the procedure and outcomes should be on the Smyth case, I'm not looking to tear the C of E apart.

The big problem with all of this is that the hierarchy of religions who were in the know have covered up or excused this, whether it be the Pope, the AoC or others who have done nothing for a very long time.
Now we hear of the abuse of women by other religions being classified as ‘right’ according to the leader.

Its all very alarming. I am on page 48 on the Makin report.

ronib

Starmer left in November 2013. The report was released in February 2013.

Say no more 🙄

Sarnia

I am in despair at Christianity at the moment. A friend of mine was a dedicated churchgoer and was involved with the many groups and events her church ran. She suffered from crippling anxiety all her life not helped by an uncaring husband. Sadly, she took her own life, at the age of 72, when she could no longer live in this world. Her church refused to hold her funeral there because she had committed a sin in their eyes by taking her life. It was as if she was soiled. We ended up at the local crematorium to say goodbye to her. At this moment I hate a religion that turns its back on a fellow worshiper who was in such despair that suicide was her best choice. No compassion, no caring was shown to her. Yes, Welby should go and now, along with all the other two-faced, despicable child abusers hiding behind the cloth.

What blinking hypocrisy!

Allira

Well, that's happened since the lunch-time news when he wasn't going!

He’s probably read gransnet 🤣

I said in a previous post that abusers are attracted to organisations which give them access and power so it's hardly surprising that these organisations have a problem. This is why they need to have excellent safeguarding policies which are strictly adhered to. Whoever is the head of the organisation is responsible for ensuring this is enforced but it doesn't let others off the hook as it's the job of everyone else in the organisation to play their part. So yes, anyone who covered up the abuse and therefore allowed Smythe to continue has to be sanctioned. This will send a strong message to everyone about the consequences of ignoring uncomfortable situations and will ensure that abusers will no longer think that the church of England is a soft touch.
Fwiw I think the Co E is a pretty toxic place ATM, Welby's had a rough ride trying to keep it together and I'm sorry to see him go but his position was untenable. There was a Trip Leading interview with him recently which I nearly didn't listen to but I'm glad I did. He will extract a high payment from himself for the mistake he made in not following up on these accusations of abuse and I suspect it will be more than society would expect. Whoever follows him will need to be a strong person.

I said in a previous post that abusers are attracted to organisations which give them access and power
So it is deliberate and calculating then, which makes it all the more awful.

Religions were organised by men, for men. Why would they be any different in a patriarchal world? Their rules are mostly social constructs designed to maintain male dominance and the perceived "natural order" of things. It's the same for all organised (and most pagan) religions and has been for thousands of years. It's not going to change any time soon. They've got it all sewn up.

Yes, unfortunately many abusers hide in plain sight, so you would never suspect it. The worst is that they have their wealth and privilege, high position of power, so the victim feels they won't be believed over them.

I'm now on page 150 of 253 on the Makin Report. This abuser/barrister even threatened the church with legal action. So far I haven't seen much about God or doing the right thing , only concerns about hushing it all up. I've got to the bit where the African boy died and also Andy Shaw was murdered in 1995 after disagreeing with Smyth ( Andy's wife thought it was Smyth but no proof)

I'll keep reading...