Should Justin Welby resign?

One problem with the ‘increasing culture of no deference’ is the distance between children brought up to respect and not question religious officials, and other children their age. The priest used to have deference no matter what, we see that currently in mosques, Jehovah’s witnesses, Mormons, fundamentalist faiths.
The boys and young men abused by Smyth seem to have been Christian’s who were committed to their faith and keen to explore it. It’s hard to find words to express how horrific it is that the shocking, physically and emotionally abuse the suffered was dressed up as part of them developing as good young Christian men.

Whatever the religion or none, many of us were brought up to respect our elders.

But it isn't automatic that someone is respect worthy just because they are older. We believe that everyone deserves basic respect, but then we find out that some didn't.

00opsidia

I would love to know the lyrics of the safeguarding hymn.

Personally don't feel that a hymn and a designated sunday make up for what has happened. I feel really sorry for the ordinary nice people who are extremely uncomfortable because they have cognitie dissonance. They still want to go to church, but they also know they are being let down by the church not spitting out the people who are hiding within.

Thats why I thought today, the first Sunday after it all came out, there needed to be time and space for thoughtfulness. and discussion. We don't know what was said! I doubt whether anyone there thought it "made up" for what happened!

For some it will mean taking it further in their organisation - whatever way they take things forward - today could well have included it.

Safeguarding Sunday was not a sudden reaction to recent events, it was planned anyway, and certainly not intended as a substitute for an appropriate response to the Makin Report or JW’s resignation. It was well-handled by our vicar, I thought.

The words of the hymn can be found in reverendally.org.

No, but I saw many people afterwards who looked very troubled when I was walking my dog near the Anglican church today.

Thankyou I will have a look at the words. I know the Safeguarding Sunday was planned, a bit like the announcement of JW and the events preceeding it which I cannot mention my knowledge of as I am not supposed to know them.

I am concerned about other potential cover ups and I was researching someone who I have reason to look at online when I found this:

www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bishop-who-convinced-men-strip-894662

The man went to prison at least.

00opsidia

Whatever the religion or none, many of us were brought up to respect our elders.

But it isn't automatic that someone is respect worthy just because they are older. We believe that everyone deserves basic respect, but then we find out that some didn't.

We believe that everyone deserves basic respect

We might want to believe it.
It might have been true in the past, but that’s not always true now.

No I think respect has to be earned.

In religion. How can there be respect for those clergy, priests, monks, nuns etc. who have abused boys, young men, pregnant girls, orphans?
How can there be respect for those at the top, whether the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury or other religious leaders who condone the abuse by doing nothing about it, or turning a blind eye (in effect condoning it).

At a C of E church today there was much mention of safeguarding being everyone's responsibility.
During the prayers there was the usual mention of the Archb Canterbury and also his wife Caroline which is unusual.
Then other office holders and local safeguarding officers.
Mention of the victims was either not made or not heard ie not prominent.

Mollygo

00opsidia

Whatever the religion or none, many of us were brought up to respect our elders.

But it isn't automatic that someone is respect worthy just because they are older. We believe that everyone deserves basic respect, but then we find out that some didn't.

We believe that everyone deserves basic respect

We might want to believe it.
It might have been true in the past, but that’s not always true now.

No I think respect has to be earned.

In religion. How can there be respect for those clergy, priests, monks, nuns etc. who have abused boys, young men, pregnant girls, orphans?
How can there be respect for those at the top, whether the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury or other religious leaders who condone the abuse by doing nothing about it, or turning a blind eye (in effect condoning it).

@Mollygo I agree, I think respect has to be earned too. I think a general respect that you would have for all people because of who you are, not because of who they are is just basic politeness and consideration etc, but a true, reverential respect would need to be earned.

Actions speak louder than words so "when someone shows you who they are, believe them" springs to mind. I was just saying to DH about how many people we feel have not been who they said (naming no names) but it's pretty shocking even in the disocese where we live to see certain things.

@Welbeck I'm shocked and sad that they did not pray for the victims today on Safeguarding Sunday.

@cabbie21 I couldn't find the words to the Safeguarding Hymn and don't have it in me to search after reading 253 pages of the Makin report.

Found it by myself thirtyoneeight.org/media/lmmdh34p/sg-hymn-lyrics.pdf

I thought at first that it had been written for the C of E, but I see not.

Wyllow3

Like I said, I'm not C of E, but it does seem rather punitive on all ordinary congregation members who've turned up to take part in a religious ceremony to be expected somehow to carry blame or be lectured.
It seems to me what Cabbie21 describes as both appropriate and the start of a way forward. She describes it as being taken very seriously.

Re my earlier post 12.19 I now know that the 'Safeguarding Sunday' has been an annual occurrence for some years and the hymn was written some years ago for safeguarding members.
So nothing was said in support of the victims/survivors of the abuse and cover-up. That astounds me.
The church would not survive if it were not for its congregation, they should be shouting out for resignations, if they aren't then yes, they took are complicit.

Yes I also thought they had hastily cobbled together the safeguarding hymn and done a safeguarding sunday as a response to the abuse, but now I know its annual it means less because it means there isnt a response.

I dont agree with the congregation being lectured or punished because it is the blind leaders leading the blind. It would be great for enough of them to break through the apathy and fear to demand resignations.

At the moment I am angry and sad for the abused, filled with relief I'm not Anglican and I also feel very let down by some locals who I know are Anglican and not doing anything to make things better. I have read the whole Makin report and I'm absolutely horrified. I want justice for the abused and to see a purging in the C of E.

What l wrote, that Wyllow has interpreted as me suggesting that congregations should be punished and lectured, was:
^With respect
If it's the abuse of scores boys and the resulting decades of cover-up by the church is being taken seriously more clergy MUST resign, and congregations should be calling for that.
Designating a day and singing a hymn really doesn't cut the mustard.
They should read the Report out instead of a sermon^

I really don't see how that equates to calling for punishment and lecturing.
It's being informed. It's actually unimaginable that any Anglican churchgoer hasn't read the report in full. The victims/survivors, at the very least, deserve that

That hymn has made me feel quite sick. It is so far from the reality. And so pompous and unnecessary.

Organised religions give me the shivers. So much self-justification aimed at maintaining power.

Just be kind to one another. No religion with that as its heart could have produced and protected the evil perverts that abound.

Your last paragraph - the Bible actually goes much further. Jesus said "Love one another as yourself".

Will read the hymn later.

As an aside, and perhaps not, I read the words of "when I'm 64" recently.
I was shocked at how utterly outdated the words are.

The newspapers seemed to suggest yesterday that many of the clergy are keeping quiet because they are hoping they have a chance at being Arch Bishop.

Being quiet will be seen as condoning abuse. Condoning abuse is not something anyone should do, let alone someone like a Priest who is given a responsibility to look out for others.

Like I say, I'm very let down and disappointed by some Anglicans who I always thought were decent people, even though I am not Anglican myself. But more than that, they have let down vulnerable people and been party to abuse, in keeping quiet and for that I am outraged and horrified. Money and priviledge cannot be more important than doing the right thing.

OldFrill

They should read the Report out instead of a sermon.

There were graphic descriptions of the abuse in that report.
I wouldn’t want my grandchildren to know of/ hear these details.
Also, triggering people who are still being abused.

You're right Petra, in fact there should have been a trigger warning at the beginning (and there wasn't)

Having always worked in a Safeguarding role through various jobs I was amazed and shocked yesterday when a relative told me they went to church and that the church spoke about "protecting all the little children". That would be good if we didn't know what we do know.

I was speechless. My (lifelong C of E) relative has not read the Makin report and has no intention of doing so. I wonder how many are so ignorant and have no intention of informing themselves?

Obviously everyone caring wants to protect all children everywhere and provide support for victims, but there will always be those who can't be bothered and selfishly do what's best for them. People who stick their head in the sand and don't care because they are ok.

Written in the latter part of the first century, the parable of the Good Samaritan is remarkably relevant today as it talks about the Priest and the Priests assistant walking past the bleeding man without crossing the road and finally the Good Samaritan helping the man. It's not always those who should be trusted who can be trusted. It may be the foreigner or the least respectable person you'd think who can be the kindest.

Ideally people should love others as themselves, yes, but in the silence that follows the Makin report, where is the love in the C of E church?

why are a lot of the clergy not speaking up
Maybe they have something to hide 🤔

OOosidia
How true. Meanwhile his wife who facilitated these horrors is still living comfortably in South Africa 😡

Yes well they do. Heads would roll. But the silence must be weighing on their consciences. There comes a point at which protecting the employer conflicts with the people you are PAID to protect and serve.

Problem is many have their nice houses and bills paid to consider, along with their reward for keeping quiet, like a promotion - or maybe just keeping their job.

According mail yesterday and abuse investigator a Dame w

petra

OOosidia
How true. Meanwhile his wife who facilitated these horrors is still living comfortably in South Africa 😡

Is she? How do we know this?

I don't know how some people sleep at night.

An abuse investigator was sacked by archbishop Canterbury and the churches number two They weren't happy with how she was doing Shocked that the people being investigated could sack the person bringing out the truth Is it one rule. for the church and another forthe average person Why are they not being questioned about cover up Was inthe mail

Apparently Dame Jasvinder in June2023?

00opsidia

petra

OOosidia
How true. Meanwhile his wife who facilitated these horrors is still living comfortably in South Africa 😡

Is she? How do we know this?

I don't know how some people sleep at night.

The Report clearly states that it is not known if Smyth's wife knew about the abuse and/or was a subject of his well documented coercive control.
If she was being coerced she (as stated in the Report) too is a victim.