Should Justin Welby resign?

mumofmadboys

Ftm420. It is good that the Church allows Muslims to use church buildings if they wish to. Inter faith dialogue is essential as we learn from each other and live in a multi faith society. I thank God that JW respects other religions.

Yes, I agree mumofmadboys

It was heartening to see him standing together with the Chief Rabbi and the Leader of the Muslim community calling for an ed to the conflict in the Middle East.

However, this is a separate issue and very grave.

Babs03

I really don’t see how recognising and getting together with differing faiths has anything to do with the Archbishop covering for a sex offender.

None whatsoever.

The media has suggested that Welby was covering up for a sex offender. We would need to read the report given to Welby before agreeing this to be true. Is the report in the public domain?

ronib

The media has suggested that Welby was covering up for a sex offender. We would need to read the report given to Welby before agreeing this to be true. Is the report in the public domain?

I don't think he was covering up so much as ignoring it and hoping it would all go away.
Just as bad.

Yes. He should resign

Sarnia

I am in despair at Christianity at the moment. A friend of mine was a dedicated churchgoer and was involved with the many groups and events her church ran. She suffered from crippling anxiety all her life not helped by an uncaring husband. Sadly, she took her own life, at the age of 72, when she could no longer live in this world. Her church refused to hold her funeral there because she had committed a sin in their eyes by taking her life. It was as if she was soiled. We ended up at the local crematorium to say goodbye to her. At this moment I hate a religion that turns its back on a fellow worshiper who was in such despair that suicide was her best choice. No compassion, no caring was shown to her. Yes, Welby should go and now, along with all the other two-faced, despicable child abusers hiding behind the cloth.

How sad. That must have some time ago because the ban in funerals for those who committed suicide was lifted several years ago.
I hope you could hold a lovely service for her at the crematorium.

This shortish article gives a good timeline summary, its helped me understand the issues and answers some questions just raised above:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/11/the-guardian-view-on-abuse-and-the-church-of-england-a-reckoning-is-due-for-a-shameful-failure

Its certainly a systemic failure as well as Welby's own part in it, tho its worth bearing in mind that there are some in the C of E who oppose Welby on church politics grounds.

The crucial main point where something most definitely should have been done seems to be the failure after 2013 to give all information on Smyth to the police:

"Mr Welby has admitted that his decision in 2013 – the year of his appointment – neither to inform the police nor to order an internal investigation represents a “shaming failure”.

This was when he learned that one of Smyth’s victims was in contact with the bishop of Ely; and also about the concealed 1982 report, which was produced after one victim tried to take his own life.

There was also contact at this time between senior church officials in England and South Africa, where Smyth then lived. But Mr Welby and the other clergy who knew about Smyth’s history did nothing more.

This was a senior group of people. The review, by Keith Makin, says it includes at least six serving bishops, five retired ones, and about 30 less senior clergy. When two reports were made to police, in the following years, the information provided was incomplete and victims were not consulted. The result was no investigation

It was only after the abuse was placed in the public domain by Channel 4 in 2017 that attempts to extradite Smyth finally began."

The Church Times has an article suggesting that the whole senior leadership, including Lord Carey, had been informed of the allegations before Welby was appointed.

foxie48 Tue 12-Nov-24 08:43:55
FGS why has this thread turned into an argument about religion, surely it's about safeguarding and the responsibility of those at the top of organisations acting swiftly and appropriately.

Yes, you're right, sorry. I was replying to various points as I have only just caught up with the thread.

Sarnia that is such a sad story

It’s reaffirmed my ‘faith’ in being an atheist (not that it needed reaffirming).

LizzieDrip

Sarnia that is such a sad story

It’s reaffirmed my ‘faith’ in being an atheist (not that it needed reaffirming).

The rules changed a few years ago.

Interesting treatment of John Smyth compared with Welby's treatment of a revered former Bishop of Chichester, George Bell, 1883-1958.
1995 :Bishop Bell was accused of sexual misconduct, 37 years after his death, by a woman who claimed he had abused her in the 1940s/50s when aged 5 to 9 years old. Complaint not investigated.
2013 : complaint made to Justin Welby, who acted because allegations of sexual abuse swirling round the C of E
2015 : allegation upheld and compensation was paid to the woman; formal apology issued. Every reference to Bishop Bell removed from the Cathedral.
Outrage from those who knew him.
2016 : independent review of procedure conducted , and found that the Church had rushed to judgement and failed to engage in a procedure which would also give consideration to the rights of the Bishop.
Available evidence did not suggest a conviction would be possible.
2017 : Welby rejected calls to clear Bishop Bell's name, saying investigations were handled as a civil matter, not a criminal one.
2019: Welby apologised for the mistakes made (by the Church investigation) but said'the original allegation cannot be ignored or swept under the carpet.'
2021 : Welby retracted his previous claim about 'a significant cloud hanging over Bishop Bell', said the Bishop was cleared of all allegations and a statue would be erected to honour him.

I rest my case.

foxie I’m not sure it’s possible to discuss the resignation of an Archbishop without bringing religion into it

Didn’t the abuser priest carry out his abuse ‘in the name of God’?

Of course he should resign in disgrace.

I can't get my head round what the parents were doing. The BBC says these boys were beaten till they bled. So your son gets home from a camp in pain probably not able to carry his backpack to school wincing if anyone touches him. T shirts in his laundry bloodstained and no parent went to the police? How does that happen. Does no teacher notice? Does no child complain? I don't understand it.

Why are we waiting for him to resign? Why isn't be being sacked? The church has the power just like any other employer. He should be sacked along with any other clergy involved. I don't want him to be seen as a "token scapegoat". Until all the rot is dismissed the cycle will continue.

LizzieDrip it is completely irrelevant what the abuser used to justify his actions to his victims, that's not the issue, it's Welby's failure to act appropriately that is the issue.

Ronib It also doesn't matter that people knew about Smythe and failed to act. It does not excuse Welby from his responsibility as head of the church to act. He has already admitted his failure, that is not challenged by him, he has apologised but IMO that is insufficient. He has lost credibility and needs to go, closely followed by anyone else who helped cover up Smythe's abuse. I can't help thinking it's more than coincidence that this latest report was released earlier than expected on the day of the results of the US election. Trying to "bury" difficult news?

theworriedwell

I can't get my head round what the parents were doing. The BBC says these boys were beaten till they bled. So your son gets home from a camp in pain probably not able to carry his backpack to school wincing if anyone touches him. T shirts in his laundry bloodstained and no parent went to the police? How does that happen. Does no teacher notice? Does no child complain? I don't understand it.

Some were at boarding school.
Others at a holiday camp in Zimbabwe, I believe.

Perhaps they washed their own clothes, poor little souls.

Gosh, only just found this thread, but came straight to the end to add my thoughts.
Yes, I think he should definitely resign. I’m quite astonished by his arrogance.
Now I’d better read the full thread.

Allira it must have been seen at boarding school. How many adults closed their eyes then looked away. JW bears responsibility for what he failed to do but what about all the others? This should not end with JW as lots of people let those kids down.

Yes he should be thrown straight out !

MissAdventure

Somebody needs to put the rubbish out.

I love your quote MissA.
And it’s absolutely right!

foxie48

LizzieDrip it is completely irrelevant what the abuser used to justify his actions to his victims, that's not the issue, it's Welby's failure to act appropriately that is the issue.

Ronib It also doesn't matter that people knew about Smythe and failed to act. It does not excuse Welby from his responsibility as head of the church to act. He has already admitted his failure, that is not challenged by him, he has apologised but IMO that is insufficient. He has lost credibility and needs to go, closely followed by anyone else who helped cover up Smythe's abuse. I can't help thinking it's more than coincidence that this latest report was released earlier than expected on the day of the results of the US election. Trying to "bury" difficult news?

"closely followed by anyone else who helped cover up Smythe's abuse"

Thats part of the current problem for the C of E. As I posted above

This was a senior group of people. The review, by Keith Makin, says it includes at least six serving bishops, five retired ones, and about 30 less senior clergy

Should they all go

Allira

Sarnia

I am in despair at Christianity at the moment. A friend of mine was a dedicated churchgoer and was involved with the many groups and events her church ran. She suffered from crippling anxiety all her life not helped by an uncaring husband. Sadly, she took her own life, at the age of 72, when she could no longer live in this world. Her church refused to hold her funeral there because she had committed a sin in their eyes by taking her life. It was as if she was soiled. We ended up at the local crematorium to say goodbye to her. At this moment I hate a religion that turns its back on a fellow worshiper who was in such despair that suicide was her best choice. No compassion, no caring was shown to her. Yes, Welby should go and now, along with all the other two-faced, despicable child abusers hiding behind the cloth.

How sad. That must have some time ago because the ban in funerals for those who committed suicide was lifted several years ago.
I hope you could hold a lovely service for her at the crematorium.

Her funeral was 2 weeks ago. The minister at her church had the final say according to her eldest daughter who was distraught at his decision.

Any evidence of Smythe’s abuse, on children who were at boarding school, will have been ignored by their schools - many of which probably still implemented corporal punishment themselves.

These institutions have ruined the lives of many, many young people.