Starmer declines to rule out council tax rise.

Mollygo

When we holiday in Europe, we pay local taxes, per person, per day to contribute to local services. Would that be too complicated for the UK?

No.
www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/wales-tourist-tax-b2646176.html#:~:text=Overnight%20visitors%20in%20Wales%20may,sustainability%E2%80%9D%20of%20the%20tourism%20industry.

Doodledog

That's what I'm saying really, Iam. There is no way you are using the same services as a larger family. I'm not saying that children should be charged for, but adults are different.

Given that single occupiers get a discount (presumably because it is recognised that they use fewer services) why doesn't the logic apply the other way? That way, the hypothetical little old lady would pay less, as the costs would be spread amongst more people. Alternatively, councils would get more to spend on better services.

As I say, I am thinking aloud, so if my logic is flawed I'm very happy to listen to how.

Council Tax doesn't go directly to paying for services anyway.

Council Tax doesn't go directly to paying for services anyway.

No, and road tax doesn't pay for roads, but it is 'marketed' as such, much as we are told that NI is for pensions and the NHS. On my pension forecast it is explicitly stated that I have to keep paying until my SPA because the money goes towards the NHS and other benefits.

If none of this is true, why have all the separate charges?

I'm still interested in why single people get a discount when households with more adults aren't charged per head. I'm not arguing to do away with the single person discount, but logically if we accept that that is fair, then so should charging per capita rather than per household. As I say, the way I see it that would mean that the cost per person would go down - isn't that fairer across the board?

Google tells me that CT is used to fund schools, libraries and other local services. I’m curious as to what you meant growstuff.
I’m happy to contribute to the benefit of society in the various taxes I pay.

Can’t access that Casdon.

Iam64

Google tells me that CT is used to fund schools, libraries and other local services. I’m curious as to what you meant growstuff.
I’m happy to contribute to the benefit of society in the various taxes I pay.

That's what I thought, Iam. But we are always being told that money we pay isn't used to fund what we are told they pay for. We get a pie chart explaining where the CT goes, and as I say, the Gov.uk website spells out that NI funds the NHS and other benefits.

Mollygo

Can’t access that Casdon.

Sorry, it’s a weird thing with the Independent, sometimes it won’t let you in, but if you keep trying the link it willl eventually, I’d don’t know why. Anyway, same story from BBC.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2456p8gp5go

Doodledog

Iam64

Google tells me that CT is used to fund schools, libraries and other local services. I’m curious as to what you meant growstuff.
I’m happy to contribute to the benefit of society in the various taxes I pay.

That's what I thought, Iam. But we are always being told that money we pay isn't used to fund what we are told they pay for. We get a pie chart explaining where the CT goes, and as I say, the Gov.uk website spells out that NI funds the NHS and other benefits.

Council Tax is paid direct to central government and is then paid back to councils according to perceived need. Perceived need is decided by central government, so some councils receive more per capita than others. Wealthier areas sometimes receive less back than they contribute, although the Conservatives changed the formula, so poorer councils received less than they had done in the past.

Councils are allowed to keep some of the money they raise, such as parking charges and grants from new building.

Essentially, Council Tax is a very crude wealth tax and is just another way of distributing the burden of taxation. Most schools are funded directly from the government and even those which aren't, are funded with payments made by central government to councils according to a formula.

It might be 'marketed' as paying for local services, but it doesn't.

We pay our council tax directly to our local council in Wales growstuff, I didn’t realise it was different in England.

Even in Wales, Council Tax only pays for 25% of local services. The rest comes from business rates and revenue support grants paid by the Welsh government.

PS. Our local district council collects Council Tax, but only keeps 8% of it.

The tourist tax contributes to the expenses and management of each commune or municipality, that are necessary for the development of tourism in its area.

The municipality decides on the allocation of the tax proceeds, allowing notably:

to contribute to the management costs of the information centre or to subsidise the tourist office,
to recruit extra staff for the tourist season,
to maintain the beaches and tourist facilities, which also benefits local people
to decorate the area,
to create extra parking spaces, which also benefits local people
to provide local signage, etc...

It doesn’t say anything about paying it to the government in order to get it back from the government.
Perhaps that’s where we go wrong. I suspect any tourist tax would vanish into the government coffers (any government) and would do little to benefit the local community who have had the tax levied on it.

Tourist tax is nothing to do with Council Tax.

Councils are allowed to keep some money they raise - that's why some inner London boroughs raise a fortune from parking, which they are allowed to keep, so can keep their Council Tax rates low.

I don't care about the official impression councils give. Council Tax is paid to central government and all goes into the same 'pot' as other taxes and is redistributed to councils. That's how the system works.

Mollygo If central government didn't redistribute Council Tax income according to need, some poorer areas would never be able to raise enough money. Often they are the ones with the greatest needs. By far the biggest chunk of local government spending goes to adult social care. If there were no redistribution of the money raised from Council Tax, vulnerable adults living in poorer areas would have no chance of receiving anything like a reasonable level of care.

You’re arguing with yourself.
I know about council tax and how it works.

And none of this answers the question of why the poll tax was so unpopular, as opposed to payment by household.

If the idea was that where a bill for an address came to £100 it should rise to £400 if four adults lived there, I could understand the objection, but if the charge were worked out so that the same amount was collected but divided by the number of eligible adults in the area, rather than the number of households, many people would be better off.

The wealthier were better off as they paid less than under the previous system and the poorer paid more.
It was unjust and that was it's downfall.

Sorry - do you mean the wealthy were better off under the poll tax (or would have been) or under the CT/rateable value system?

The wealthy were better off with the poll tax.

Mollygo

You’re arguing with yourself.
I know about council tax and how it works.

If that's the case, why are you making the assertions you have done?

growstuff

If that's the case, why are you making the assertions you have done?

Presumably for the same reasons that you do.

newnanny

So we all have to help your MiL and your dogs then.

Yes, that's how democracy works. I paid NIC all my working life, but I am fortunate that I needed very little attention from the NHS. I have paid council tax for many years, but so far, have had little call for 'extras' such as social care. Perhaps, with your attitiude, you would prefer to live in USA and pay for absolutely everything?

HousePlantQueen - pay everything for self, nothing towards others less fortunate

Great poem just missing out on changes to right to buy 21 Nov