Bring it on Elon!

love0c

Some very strange posts. So will all stay home then. Do not bother to work. Just stay home and collect your benefits. Oh dear. The benefits have run out! I wonder why that is????

What made you think that? What is it a reply to. In itself it's a bit off the wall.

MaizieD

P.S Have the critics ever heard of J M Keynes? Also a revered figure in the economic world?

Economic theories that have not benefited the UK for at least 50yrs although they have benefited China, US, Korea and others.

Slaves eventually rebel David49. Or do you think uprisings and wars are a reasonable price to pay for the individuals success under extreme capitalism?

China is a prime example of how extremists from either side meet at the same point.

David49

MaizieD

P.S Have the critics ever heard of J M Keynes? Also a revered figure in the economic world?

Economic theories that have not benefited the UK for at least 50yrs although they have benefited China, US, Korea and others.

The UK abandoned Keynes int the late 1970s and embraced Hayek and Friedman. That's why we're in the mess we're in now.

The US did too, though Biden's recent economic policies, which have been successful, owed more to Keynes than they did to Hayek and Friedman.

PoliticsNerd

Slaves eventually rebel David49. Or do you think uprisings and wars are a reasonable price to pay for the individuals success under extreme capitalism?

China is a prime example of how extremists from either side meet at the same point.

They would have rebelled long ago, if there weren’t party spies in every street making sure nobody disobeyed instructions, the few that tried either disappeared or were sent to re-education camps.

Don't worry MaizieD, I'm sure we are all busy but will have time to chat after Christmas.

I'm not sure "attack" is correct. Surely theories are there to be criticised. That way they they can be proved, disproved and/or developed.

I have always understood that Smith's views support a system that incorporates elements of both free markets and government intervention. This aligns with the concept of a mixed economy. I would have thought that patently excludes moving to either extreme.

I think Adam Smith was right then and is right now - if you want a mixed economy. But clearly not everyone does.

PoliticsNerd

Don't worry MaizieD, I'm sure we are all busy but will have time to chat after Christmas.

I'm not sure "attack" is correct. Surely theories are there to be criticised. That way they they can be proved, disproved and/or developed.

I have always understood that Smith's views support a system that incorporates elements of both free markets and government intervention. This aligns with the concept of a mixed economy. I would have thought that patently excludes moving to either extreme.

I think Adam Smith was right then and is right now - if you want a mixed economy. But clearly not everyone does.

I agree with you about Adam Smith but his adherents in organisations such as the Adam Smith Institute tend to ignore the government intervention (regulation) aspect and to ignore the moral dimension he introduces in his work.

I'm all in favour of a mixed economy. MMT accords perfectly well with a mixed economy as it is basically a description of how state funding actually works, not a theory of how to run an economy.

The fact that all our money (apart from foreign earnings) emanates from the state can be used by parties of any colour to further their own particular ends. Look how the money the state created during covid was used by the tories to funnel it up to their friends and donors.

Incidentally, there is a fascinating section in the Wealth of Nations about how banking contributed to the improvement of the Scottish economy by what was basically money creation as bankers lent out far more 'money' than was actually covered by the gold reserves they held.

The Christmas party chat included the differences between the UK and China and one point was that we live in a democracy and the Chinese do not. Apparently China just gets on and does things…, building, manufacturing etc. Here democracy allows for continuous overthrow of previous government’s plans - be it building 40 hospitals (or not), reversing Brexit etc. in the name of democracy?
The consensus was that Conservatives really messed up and give the Labour government 2 to 3 years before we can judge!!

FriedGreenTomatoes2

MayBee70

I actually feel ashamed to be a member of a forum that includes members that eulogise people like Musk and Trump and limited companies like Reform in their various incarnations…

And yet here you are.

I'm not ashamed.

I just accept that I have a different viewpoint from the OP.
It's not a one-sided, extremist forum and it seems to be democratic.

For the UK a “mixed” economy went out of the window with Thatcher, now we are far too much focused on services and import. Labour’s policy is to try to redress that by encouraging more enterprise, which is a big step forward from Tory policy of giveaways to those that didn’t need it.
I wish them well, judging by the reaction we are getting from voters they will struggle to make an impact before the next election.

I don't understand how a critique of late-stage capitalism was perceived to be a call for socialism.

I also don't understand why successful 1st world countries with more socialist policies are completely overlooked (e.g. nordic countries).

I also don't understand how it's hypocrisy to criticize a system I was a born into. Especially when the criticism is more than valid and earned.

Early stage Capitalism is great and all (like during cowboy times). It drives innovation, and healthy competition between competitors is great for everyone as they try to outdo each other with better products.

The problem is with late-stage capitalism. Where the capitalists have amassed enough wealth to literally buy out the government, ensuring they control the rules that run our society. It's a major problem because they will use those rules for profit, more often than not, at the expense of everyone else.

This causes issues on a micro & macro level as they trash their communities and the environment, all for more money. They will never stop unless forced to, as they will never have enough money.

I don't understand this capitalist worship, as if we would all be bumbling, clueless idiots if it weren't for their graceful hand guiding us.

“I also don't understand why successful 1st world countries with more socialist policies are completely overlooked (e.g. nordic countries).”

That surprises me.

Nordic countries have large natural resources they are exploiting, all have small populations so can well afford to have a prosperous lifestyles

Ok, well I just don't think anyone should be dying because they couldn't afford insulin (something that costs cents to make), just for an obscenely rich person to just become richer.

“The problem is with late-stage capitalism. Where the capitalists have amassed enough wealth to literally buy out the government, ensuring they control the rules that run our society. It's a major problem because they will use those rules for profit, more often than not, at the expense of everyone else.”

“The problem is with late-stage capitalism. Where the capitalists have amassed enough wealth to literally buy out the government, ensuring they control the rules that run our society. It's a major problem because they will use those rules for profit, more often than not, at the expense of everyone else.”

That’s not a threat because in a democracy (US) voters would force a change in government, in a dictatorship (China) the government actively controls personal empires, personal wealth is only allowed if you tow the party line.

In the case of Musk, Gates or Bezos the government could swat those at will, as it is they all benefit the US economy greatly

David49

“The problem is with late-stage capitalism. Where the capitalists have amassed enough wealth to literally buy out the government, ensuring they control the rules that run our society. It's a major problem because they will use those rules for profit, more often than not, at the expense of everyone else.”

That’s not a threat because in a democracy (US) voters would force a change in government, in a dictatorship (China) the government actively controls personal empires, personal wealth is only allowed if you tow the party line.

In the case of Musk, Gates or Bezos the government could swat those at will, as it is they all benefit the US economy greatly

This is kind of a naive take. Look up the Citizens United law, lobbying, Super PACs, and who really owns the mainstream media outlets.

I want to add, there's a good reason people were glad to see a health insurance CEO get shot dead. If our voices were actually being heard, their predatory system wouldn't be in place. America spends the most out of any country on healthcare, yet we have abysmal (health) results.

Given what I've said about late stage capitalists buying out the government (including sources of information), the will of the people is no longer present in government.

“This is kind of a naive take. Look up the Citizens United law, lobbying, Super PACs, and who really owns the mainstream media outlets.”

It comes back to bite them, Johnson backed by media frenzy convinced voters for Brexit, 8 yrs later resulted in the largest Labour majority ever.

Citizens Law, it is unfair that elections can be skewed by large donations to parties, it’s easy to restrict political donations, its media coverage that the problem. In the recent GE the BBC gave Reform massive free publicity, far in excess of its importance.
How would “you” control the media

I too find the term 'B----it 'is too obscene. It's not simply the anatomical implication it's that the user probably does not even know why it's an obscenity.

Fried GreenTomatoes, I think you have been influenced by some unidentified source. I should look to your reading matter if I were you.

DropppedOut

I don't understand how a critique of late-stage capitalism was perceived to be a call for socialism.

I also don't understand why successful 1st world countries with more socialist policies are completely overlooked (e.g. nordic countries).

I also don't understand how it's hypocrisy to criticize a system I was a born into. Especially when the criticism is more than valid and earned.

Early stage Capitalism is great and all (like during cowboy times). It drives innovation, and healthy competition between competitors is great for everyone as they try to outdo each other with better products.

The problem is with late-stage capitalism. Where the capitalists have amassed enough wealth to literally buy out the government, ensuring they control the rules that run our society. It's a major problem because they will use those rules for profit, more often than not, at the expense of everyone else.

This causes issues on a micro & macro level as they trash their communities and the environment, all for more money. They will never stop unless forced to, as they will never have enough money.

I don't understand this capitalist worship, as if we would all be bumbling, clueless idiots if it weren't for their graceful hand guiding us.

👏👏👏👏👏👏

Caleo

Fried GreenTomatoes, I think you have been influenced by some unidentified source. I should look to your reading matter if I were you.

I actually feel quite embarrassed to be a member of a forum that includes members who bully others for stating their views.

Yet here I am.
Because Gransnet is more than that.

I don’t regard Caleo as a bully.

MayBee70

I don’t regard Caleo as a bully.

Saying ‘look to your reading matter’ does come across as sounding superior.

Does sounding superior amount to bullying?