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Democracy under threat

(235 Posts)
KateW19 Mon 06-Jan-25 20:22:23

Good to see Europe’s saner leaders and ministers uniting against the current baiting from across the pond. We can never underestimate the risk that we could lose our democracy and hard won freedoms. We came close in 1944, and the thought of my children losing the protections we have leaves me cold. From the Guardian earlier: “ A German government spokesperson did mention Musk by name, insisting his influence on voters was limited. “Normal people, sensible people, decent people are in a big majority in this country,” the spokesperson told a regular press conference in Berlin.

“We act as if Mr Musk’s Twitter statements could influence a country of 84 million people with untruths or half-truths or expressions of opinion,” the spokesperson added. “This is simply not the case.” Nevertheless the far right have 5 years to drag us into their gutter and no doubt they will do their utmost to unravel the world as we know it.

BevSec Tue 07-Jan-25 17:00:19

HousePlantQueen

BevSec

Just read that the Duke of Marlborough is offering to hold a meeting between Nige and Musk at Blenheim Palace. Apparently he is a Reform supporter. Good to know its not just lumpen proles like me who support Reform! He must be concerned about what is happening to this country too.

Presumably he is looking at some way of making a deal over Inheritance Tax, considers himself a poor farmer. Anyone who seriously thinks that The Duke Of Marlborough has their interests at heart needs to have a lie down. Maybe read the Ragged Trousered Philanthropist whilst doing so

I have never read the ragged trousered philanthropist, must see if I can find it somewhere and give it a go. Am reading a biography on Keynes atm, recommended by fellow gransnetter. These book suggestions are very helpful.

MaizieD Tue 07-Jan-25 17:20:06

Are you enjoying the Keynes bio, BevSec?

The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist is quite harrowing. I read it years ago and haven't tried since even though I have a copy and I'm a great one for re-reading. I think I can't bear how nothing has changed in 100 years.

petra Tue 07-Jan-25 17:29:04

The Ragged Trouser Philanthropist quotes.

www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/906396-ragged-trousered-philanthropists#:~:text=No%20one%20can%20justly%20be,system%20deserve%20is%20another%20question.

BevSec Tue 07-Jan-25 18:07:58

I am really enjoying the Keynes biography MaizieD, its an engaging book. It will be interesting to compare how life has changed in the last 100 years with the other book, I love social history, poor people have really had it so hard in the past.

GrannyRose15 Wed 08-Jan-25 00:14:28

KateW19

No it’s absolutely correct that the lower education attainment, the more likely a person would vote for far right groups, and likewise higher ed attainment vote left. One of the reasons right wing groups ban books in schools

What's the excuse for Left wing groups banning books , I wonder.

GrannyRose15 Wed 08-Jan-25 00:20:13

PoliticsNerd

Galaxy

I think you will find that it was democracy that led to Trumps victory, it is always awful when people wont vote the way you want them to isnt it.

I think you will find that democracy based on lies is no democracy, but an opportunistic or unscrupulous power grab for dictatorship.

It seems they want to add empire building to this as well.

"Democracy based on lies is no democracy" I couldn't agree more. Who is going to tell Starmer?

Whitewavemark2 Wed 08-Jan-25 06:01:23

I see that the tool everyone could use to Fact check politicians’ rhetoric, is being withdrawn by Meta, in order to appease Trump.

Democracy in action!

Cindylou Wed 08-Jan-25 07:45:37

😂😂😂

love0c Wed 08-Jan-25 07:57:37

KateW19 - Clueless!

Doodledog Wed 08-Jan-25 08:23:31

What's the excuse for Left wing groups banning books , I wonder.

There’s not much to choose between right and left at the extremes. Both can be authoritarian, and it is this, rather than economic philosophy, that encourages the control of education and ideas.

M0nica Wed 08-Jan-25 08:31:46

All democracy is based on lies. Anything any politician says that does not agree with the political preferences of the individual voter is a lie - at least in the mind of that person.

You only need to read any GN political thread to learn that.

love0c Wed 08-Jan-25 08:36:34

Monica I disagree. A lie is a lie. If a politician says one thing and does another then they did lie in the first place. The lie stands whatever way you vote.

Elegran Wed 08-Jan-25 08:40:06

Galaxy

The left have been controlling speech for years, as I said ask any feminist. I am afraid the last few years have taught me that left automatically equals good and right equals bad is a demonstration of the lack of the critical thinking you are talking about.

You could say the same for automatically believing that right automatically equals law and order and universal financial success and left automatically equals communistic mediocrity and sheep-like dependence on welfare handouts. Neither image would be correct. The truth is somewhere halfway between the two.

Aristocracy, plutocracy, meritocracy, democracy, just about all of the #ocracies, are all attempts to get a nation composed of people of many varied backgrounds, skills and attitudes to live in close proximity without constant exploitation by the powerful of the vulnerable, or physical and virtual bloodshed.

It was much simpler when we lived as family groups well spaced out from each other in a sparsely populated landscape, and only came up against the Others if we were foraging far from home, or if they had used up all the resources around their encampment and were looking for somewhere new to live. Differences within a group were settled in-house, and if you didn't like the result, you could walk out and set up home elsewhere in the ample empty wilderness that surrounded you, with no-one to disagree with you.

You can't do that any more. Empty wilderness is in short supply, even Antartica and Everest are littered with the evidence of human life (or death in the case of Everest). There are always others around, with their own opinions and ideals to push, or their own power and wealth to pursue.

Casdon Wed 08-Jan-25 08:43:10

A lie is a deliberate intention to mislead love0c. If somebody says one thing and does another it is not always a lie, because circumstances, and people, change. It’s the intent that is the relevant factor.

love0c Wed 08-Jan-25 08:45:40

Casdon Yes i know that. Labour lied to get voted in. They knew they were lying. Their intent is evident!

keepingquiet Wed 08-Jan-25 08:53:43

love0c

Casdon Yes i know that. Labour lied to get voted in. They knew they were lying. Their intent is evident!

Politicians shouldn't lie but human beings do although they shouldn't.

Maybe AI politicians are the way forward.

I don't get how Starmer can possibly be a bigger lier than Johnson, but it was seen as a charming trait in him.

People need to start being more honest with themselves, but that isn't going to happen either.

Elegran Wed 08-Jan-25 08:59:48

love0c

Monica I disagree. A lie is a lie. If a politician says one thing and does another then they did lie in the first place. The lie stands whatever way you vote.

Lying is knowing that the truth is entirely different from what you are saying, but saying it anyway. Changing your plans in the light of further information or research does not make you a liar. Have you never told your child that there would be some treat or other, then found it would be impossible to do it as you had planned - they would be very upset, and you would be blamed for disappointing them, but you were not telling lies.

If the politicians say they intend to do something and then genuinely find it impossible once they have gone into it more deeply, then they have not lied, they have been a bit quick in stating the intention before they have done all the planning and the costing, but it wasn't a lie when they said it. The information may not have been available when they declared "If I was in charge, I would . . " - particularly detailed financial info, which a previous financial department may have been reluctant to totally reveal to a possible successor until they had to.

love0c Wed 08-Jan-25 09:00:35

Keeping quiet I agree. I think if a party breaks their manifesto they should resign. That goes for whichever party is in. Any party can say anything to get voted in and they do!

growstuff Wed 08-Jan-25 09:01:26

If all politicians lie, what's the point of democracy? Every so often we (the plebs) are given a chance to choose how we run our society, but how can we decide if we're essentially taking pot luck because nobody tells the truth? Do we decide because we like somebody's trouser suit or smile? Why even bother with democracy? Why not just let the strongest climb to the top and rule as we were ruled in the Middle Ages?

Surely we can come up with something better than that!

love0c Wed 08-Jan-25 09:03:10

Growstuff Hence, why I say they should be held accountable.

growstuff Wed 08-Jan-25 09:03:35

love0c

Growstuff Hence, why I say they should be held accountable.

How?

Whitewavemark2 Wed 08-Jan-25 09:03:47

love0c

Keeping quiet I agree. I think if a party breaks their manifesto they should resign. That goes for whichever party is in. Any party can say anything to get voted in and they do!

Events dear boy, events.

That would never work.

growstuff Wed 08-Jan-25 09:04:03

Incidentally, I was playing devil's advocate.

love0c Wed 08-Jan-25 09:05:14

Whitewave It might if party's were held accountable. if we continually allow them to lie, then they will continue to do so. It is called having a deterrent.

Whitewavemark2 Wed 08-Jan-25 09:13:49

love0c

Whitewave It might if party's were held accountable. if we continually allow them to lie, then they will continue to do so. It is called having a deterrent.

Well, how would you deal with a promise made in the manifesto - say to cut military spending. And then, we were threatened by a foreign power?

Or to increase spending in a certain area, and then world markets meant that the chancellor faced a rise in borrowing costs that in effect cut her budget?