Democracy under threat

Whitewave I understand what you are saying. However, if a party is allowed to lie and get away with it, which they have been allowed to for years. This is why we are in the state we are. Things have to change. It will be difficult but that is no reason not to. As the saying 'nip it in the bud'. We have never 'nipped'. We now need to cut back!

love0c

Whitewave It might if party's were held accountable. if we continually allow them to lie, then they will continue to do so. It is called having a deterrent.

How would you know if an alternative could do any better? Would you kick a new government out when it showed it couldn't deliver either?

I’m honest with myself, I know what I can achieve and I know what others around me can achieve. There are always unexpected snags so you allow extra provision, over time it all gets done. That exactly what successful business do they deliver what they promise.

Politicians, to win votes they promise too much, too soon, either they don’t have the resources or some snag delays the work. Hence most polititians end ups failures because they promise too much

Growstuff You are missing the point. It is because we have allowed party's to continually lie to us that they do. Are you saying then we can doing nothing about it? We just have to allow them to continue lying? They all need pulling up. Yes it is difficult but things have to change.

love0c

Casdon Yes i know that. Labour lied to get voted in. They knew they were lying. Their intent is evident!

Why did you not say what you actually meant then, instead of making a statement that wasn’t true? It’s always better to be clear what you’re talking about.

I think that perhaps we should treat manifestos as “direction of travel” rather than a tablet of stone.

Our involvement begins and ends with the vote.

Casdon You have complexity lost me there with your post?

Elegran

love0c

Monica I disagree. A lie is a lie. If a politician says one thing and does another then they did lie in the first place. The lie stands whatever way you vote.

Lying is knowing that the truth is entirely different from what you are saying, but saying it anyway. Changing your plans in the light of further information or research does not make you a liar. Have you never told your child that there would be some treat or other, then found it would be impossible to do it as you had planned - they would be very upset, and you would be blamed for disappointing them, but you were not telling lies.

If the politicians say they intend to do something and then genuinely find it impossible once they have gone into it more deeply, then they have not lied, they have been a bit quick in stating the intention before they have done all the planning and the costing, but it wasn't a lie when they said it. The information may not have been available when they declared "If I was in charge, I would . . " - particularly detailed financial info, which a previous financial department may have been reluctant to totally reveal to a possible successor until they had to.

This.

And of course major events come along which make previous intentions either not possible or only deliverable to a limited extent.

Politicians like us all may also say something - for example saying 4 years ago "we would or wouldn't do this", given the circumstances of that time say 2020/2021

By the time an election comes/manifesto drawn up, 2 or 3 years later, 2024, the situation has changed so much the original intention is not possible. This is not a "lie". This happens in all areas of life. Good politicians do their best, and its intention that matters.

Whitewave I like that phrase 'direction of travel'. If a party completely travels in the opposite direction they should be out.

Willow Good politicians do their best. Correct. Such a shame there are so few about!!!

(I realise its a typo, but it's Wyllow please, there is also a willow with very different view from me that has confused people and people have attributed posts according to this).

KateW19

What is it that appeals to you about Nigel Farage? Is it that he seems approachable? Or is it specific pledges that you feel would improve yours or your family’s lives?

Same could be said of KS, looking back at all his interviews he’s gone back on everything he promised.

love0c

Growstuff You are missing the point. It is because we have allowed party's to continually lie to us that they do. Are you saying then we can doing nothing about it? We just have to allow them to continue lying? They all need pulling up. Yes it is difficult but things have to change.

No, I'm not missing the point at all. I'm trying to discuss the concept of democracy without resorting to petty party politics, which is what you're doing.

Galaxy

I think you will find that it was democracy that led to Trumps victory, it is always awful when people wont vote the way you want them to isnt it.

Trump's spin and outright lies led to his Victory, not to mention that there are some who actually believe God chose him to lead America.

If that's your idea of democracy, it isn't mine.

it is always awful when people wont vote the way you want them to isnt it.

... and when people don't vote the "way you want them to" Mr Musk will be on hand to fan the flames.

Democracy gave us Starmer, Musk doesn't like that we did that - so much so that he's conducting a poll on whether the USA should "liberate" the UK.

There is no real democracy anywhere. The world is run by very rich people for very rich people, it's as simple as that.

... and they will go along with this faction, or that faction, they will present themselves as 'men of the people', or stoke the divides, make promises to fix that or this concern of 'the people', promise "better times" ahead, concur with racists at the same time as denouncing them..

They will, these very rich people, do whatever it takes to remain in control, to hold the status quo.

And the reason they do it is because there is more of us than there is of them, and the only way to control a crowd bigger than your own is to cause dissent and make them fight among themselves.

It has always been this way and always will be.

There is no true Democracy.

love0c

Monica I disagree. A lie is a lie. If a politician says one thing and does another then they did lie in the first place. The lie stands whatever way you vote.

Except that is not what happens. Everything one party says is described as a lie by another party. They then have a long argument about exactly what was said, how it was said, whether the meaning of the words is what each side says it is, and so on and so and so on.

The problem is that a lie isn't a lie, Yes or no, It can just be being 'economical with the truth' Saying one thing that isntrue but not its follow-up that shows thata in certain circumstances it isn't.

Having seen Musks father on TV this morning I ve never seen a nastier more objectionable man with such horrendous views including thinking Tommy Robinson should be out and leading the world
Listening to him you could really see where Hitler emerged from

I agree with you Dickens, which is why I always remember that "democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch".

BlueBelle

Having seen Musks father on TV this morning I ve never seen a nastier more objectionable man with such horrendous views including thinking Tommy Robinson should be out and leading the world
Listening to him you could really see where Hitler emerged from

Never forget that his ancestors were the masters of apartheid.

He was born into that world.

growstuff

I agree with you Dickens, which is why I always remember that "democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch".

"democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch".

I've not heard that before, but it does neatly sum it up.

Tommy Robinson should be out and leading the world



from Wiki...

posted too soon...

In March 2018, Robinson attended court in support of Mark Meechan, who had been charged for a hate crime after posting footage online of a dog performing Nazi salutes in response to the phrases "gas the Jews" and "Sieg Heil". Meechan was found guilty because the video was "antisemitic and racist in nature" and was aggravated by religious prejudice.[80] Meechan said that the video was taken out of context and was a joke to annoy his girlfriend.[81]
(from Wiki)

... just the sort of world-leader the world needs then?

And yes, I know Wiki is open to correction, etc.. but read what he has said about "The Jewish Question"

... "Tommy's Statement - The Jewish Question

... dear God, I think I have to have a break...

Dickens

growstuff

I agree with you Dickens, which is why I always remember that "democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch".

"democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch".

I've not heard that before, but it does neatly sum it up.

It's sometimes attributed to Benjamin Franklin, but that's an urban myth. I think it was first written by a journalist in the twentieth century.

The US's founding fathers were aware of the potential “tyranny of the majority”, which is why the constitution is sacrosanct and is supposed to protect minorities. The US is technically not a democracy. I wonder what they'd make of the way the constitution is currently being manipulated.

The UK, of course, has never had a single constitution. We've just muddled along and those in power have persuaded the people we live in a democracy, but I doubt if many people really think what it means.

What’s the alternative to democracy? There isn’t one, ( that’s any good) and however defective posters think it is, there isn’t anything better.

Oreo

What’s the alternative to democracy? There isn’t one, ( that’s any good) and however defective posters think it is, there isn’t anything better.

I agree.

It's the best we can do.

But it's a very uneven playing field.