Shocking news this morning. On the tv and in the papers.

I agree with that, it is one of the reasons I dislike the way class is so frequently ignored in discussions of oppression.

Elegran

We can't all excell and be outstanding - many of us are the bedrock on which the outstanding stand, with their sponsors supporting them. Those who don't excel but are just mediumish and hardworking need a chance to get on in the world too. A country where only those whose heads (and wealth) are near the ceiling are thought to be an asset to the economy is a country where those at the bottom of the pyramid getting nothing are disheartened at being crushed, so they are likely to rebel and cause the whole structure and hierarchy to collapse.

Expectations, I am the product of a state high school in the 1960s, Im sure many of you are the same, our expectation we’re not raised, none of my schoolmates went to University. We ALL got jobs in whatever career we chose, the smart ones went to technical college and qualified on the job for promotion, there was no glass ceiling. Today the expectations are raised far to high, then students get disenchanted because the aimed too high and failed.

A cousin of mine a Farm Workers son joined an insurance company from school, worked his way up and became Chief Executive, receiving Freedom of the City of London

No, not everyone can excel but with commitment you can rise through the ranks to become managers and executives, even if you begin at the bottom.

But what of people who don't want to rise up to be managers and executives, just to do a job which they are good at and enjoy, while someone else does the things they are not good at, like managing others and being an executive?

They need to have good education too, including in such uncommercial things as music and art, and how the government of our country is organised, how our judicial service works, and how the money is raised to pay for the services provided for its inhabitants. Plus a little about the ways in which "influencers" and propagandists can skew facts and how to search for the source of information and assess the likely level of its accuracy.

If everyone knew more about such things, and were able to sift truth from lies, they would be less likely to swallow whole the spin put on the news by media moguls out to profit to the maximum by public gullibility.

Some of the people I know in childrens services would be terrible managers but are excellent practioners. We need to value those skills as well, in my experience some managers (and I was a manager for a long time) do not have the skills necessary to be frontline workers. We need to treat people at all levels with decency and ensure that they are rewarded for their particular skills

Elegran

But what of people who don't want to rise up to be managers and executives, just to do a job which they are good at and enjoy, while someone else does the things they are not good at, like managing others and being an executive?

They need to have good education too, including in such uncommercial things as music and art, and how the government of our country is organised, how our judicial service works, and how the money is raised to pay for the services provided for its inhabitants. Plus a little about the ways in which "influencers" and propagandists can skew facts and how to search for the source of information and assess the likely level of its accuracy.

If everyone knew more about such things, and were able to sift truth from lies, they would be less likely to swallow whole the spin put on the news by media moguls out to profit to the maximum by public gullibility.

Everyone in the UK has the education that enables the to do an “ordinary” job, if it requires a skill level, on job training can provide that, as an apprenticeship should do. Managing others effectively is not a job many want to do, they are they are happy to have less responsibility and follow instructions.

David I once had a totally useless manager - she was apparently great as a practitioner/key worker but promoted above her skills.

Citizens are advised to carry their passports at all times
What is going to happen to the 52% who don’t have passports?

Many 'managers' are basically supervisors with additional admin tasks such as approving leave requests and recording sickness absence. Even requests made by staff in appraisals need to be signed off at a higher level.

Actual decisions about policies and procedures are taken much further up the chain, so 'manager' is more of a courtesy title in a lot of cases, particularly in large organisations.

Obviously this varies depending on the company and number of employees, but certainly in the public sector it is the case. In education in particular, promotion is often based on things like subject expertise/publications etc rather than on people skills and management ability. I have known some comically inept managers in my time, although it's not always comical for the people they manage.

We do seem to have drifted from the thread topic though

Allira

NonGrannyMoll

Ah, Claremont, "spaffing" is a new word on me. I love it.

No, it's horrible.

Just because Boris used it is no reason for us to copy him.

sarcasm is sometimes apt in extreme circumstances. I used it with full knowledge, and with BJ in mind.

Claremont

Allira

NonGrannyMoll

Ah, Claremont, "spaffing" is a new word on me. I love it.

No, it's horrible.

Just because Boris used it is no reason for us to copy him.

sarcasm is sometimes apt in extreme circumstances. I used it with full knowledge, and with BJ in mind.

And I did add this in another post:

Yes, I think Claremont used it as a quote, not her own words.

It makes me want to 🤮!

David49 If you read my post, I wasn't talking about education in the skills needed for doing a specific job. I was advocating what is probably called Life Skills. There are many people around, whether doing work where they are "happy to have less responsibility and follow instructions." or whether they have more responsibility and have to give instructions to others, who seem unable to think beyond tonight's meal, and can't work out logically what the outcome is likely to be tomorrow, or in the predictable future, of something making headlines today. They can be found in the pub or the supermarket, on the bus, at work, among friends, on social media, and even on Gransnet.

Many 'managers' are basically supervisors with additional admin tasks such as approving leave requests and recording sickness absence.

Yes, supermarkets are a good example, Head Office tell you how to manage every detail, no freedom of action you’re only there to make sure staff obey the rules. You have the worst of both worlds and give 100% to the boss and 100% to the staff.

Many professions have very little freedom of action, just the required routing.

What might those professions be, David? In my experience a profession requires capacity for independent thought. Maybe we have different definitions of a profession as opposed to a job?

I once saw a study somewhere (sorry, it was a long time ago, can't remember where) that said that if all the illegal immigrants were evicted from New York almost all restaurants and hotels would end up closing down.

I assume though that means the ones used by ordinary people, not the ones used by the super-rich who don't care what they pay.

Barleyfields

What might those professions be, David? In my experience a profession requires capacity for independent thought. Maybe we have different definitions of a profession as opposed to a job?

I would agree with that analysis. A true profession has professional standards regulated by a professional body, which in theory should override the rules of an organisation. I doubt that this applies to many roles nowadays, but even so, professions are different from jobs. A supermarket manager is not in a professional role.

David by 1960’s high school, are you meaning Secondary Modern? Of course no pupil in one of those establishments was expected or encouraged to reach for the stars.
The bright boys did tech drawing, the bright girls secretarial college.
We were lucky, we had night school in FE colleges where we could take A levels as a pathway to the university we were denied

I wondered about that Iam. I went to the local high school, which was grammar school (all girls). The expectation was that pupils would go to university, except those who studied DS. They really were regarded as having only just scraped in. The headmistress was a terrible snob, ghastly woman, and most of the teachers were Oxbridge graduates. Not a happy place.

I often see posts here claiming grammar schools are so much better than comprehensives. Elitist and untrue. Good schools should be available for all, children should never be told they’re ‘failures’ at 11

I suppose it varies from one area, one school, to another. Difficult to generalise. My son attended a comprehensive, was happy there and achieved better grades than I did because of that.

FE colleges were places that really did offer opportunity to those who were failed by the school system.

It's such a shame that the sector is now so starved of cash. As well as giving people a second chance, they 'trained people up' on day release, and offered evening classes in everything from O and A levels to dressmaking and conversational languages.

Iam64

David by 1960’s high school, are you meaning Secondary Modern? Of course no pupil in one of those establishments was expected or encouraged to reach for the stars.
The bright boys did tech drawing, the bright girls secretarial college.
We were lucky, we had night school in FE colleges where we could take A levels as a pathway to the university we were denied

A High School was a Grammar School

I went to a Girls' High School.
Several girls who did achieve good results at the High School went on to FE College as university was only for the better-off, middle class students. Teacher Training College was what was expected of us by the school.
We were not encouraged to reach for the stars.

We were all supposed to become teachers and anyone who didn't want to do that was written off.

How different it all was just a few years later!

Barleyfields

I wondered about that Iam. I went to the local high school, which was grammar school (all girls). The expectation was that pupils would go to university, except those who studied DS. They really were regarded as having only just scraped in. The headmistress was a terrible snob, ghastly woman, and most of the teachers were Oxbridge graduates. Not a happy place.

You must be younger than me!

Absolutely, Doodledog. Such a variety of courses was offered. The only one I know of is now a university. I doubt it’s the only one. So many opportunities for people who didn’t do well at school wasted.

David49

Elegran

We can't all excell and be outstanding - many of us are the bedrock on which the outstanding stand, with their sponsors supporting them. Those who don't excel but are just mediumish and hardworking need a chance to get on in the world too. A country where only those whose heads (and wealth) are near the ceiling are thought to be an asset to the economy is a country where those at the bottom of the pyramid getting nothing are disheartened at being crushed, so they are likely to rebel and cause the whole structure and hierarchy to collapse.

Expectations, I am the product of a state high school in the 1960s, Im sure many of you are the same, our expectation we’re not raised, none of my schoolmates went to University. We ALL got jobs in whatever career we chose, the smart ones went to technical college and qualified on the job for promotion, there was no glass ceiling. Today the expectations are raised far to high, then students get disenchanted because the aimed too high and failed.

A cousin of mine a Farm Workers son joined an insurance company from school, worked his way up and became Chief Executive, receiving Freedom of the City of London

No, not everyone can excel but with commitment you can rise through the ranks to become managers and executives, even if you begin at the bottom.

Expectations, I am the product of a state high school in the 1960s, Im sure many of you are the same, our expectation we’re not raised, none of my schoolmates went to University.
David49 I agree.

One of my friends went to university, some went to teacher training college, several went to FE college.
About 4-5% went to university.

I think those who are younger don't understand this at all.

Jobs were plentiful too.

I went to grammar school at the beginning of the 60s Allira. Although not an independent school, the atmosphere was very elitist and a lot of the girls came from professional families. Pupils were expected to go to university unless they were in the virtually written off DS stream. I’m sure many enjoyed their time there. I hated it.