Next step in overriding female rights!

Absolutely, Iam64. If I'm thinking of the same case you are talking about, it's being reported that a 'woman' has been charged with rape, which is factually incorrect. The law states that "A rape is when a person uses their penis without consent to penetrate the vagina, mouth, or anus of another person. Legally, a person without a penis cannot commit rape, but a female may be guilty of rape if they assist a male perpetrator in an attack."

Exactly ViceVersa on the legal definition of rape. I’ve read of victims having to refer to their rapist as ‘she’, ‘her penis’. I’m genuinely puzzled as to how this could have happened. Pandering to a small but vocal group of trans activists.
I don’t want to see trans people forced into hiding. I don’t want women marginalised and demeaned .

I feel exactly the same way. I have nothing against trans people whatsoever. I have a friend with a trans child. However, like you, I don't want to see women marginalised or demeaned, nor have the rights that we (and previous generations) fought so hard for to simply be swept aside.

Rosie51

PoliticsNerd is there any evidence any patient has ever asked for Upton's details regarding his medical history, place of residence, sexual orientation or age? I'd call that being verbose when all he needed to say was he thinks his lying about his sex is none of their business. And he is lying, no mammal let alone human has ever changed their DNA from male to female. Sex is determined by DNA not feelings.

I'm really not interested in other people's extreme prejudice Rosie51. I simply reported the actual evidence given as additional information.

What extreme prejudice are you talking about. I believe men cannot become women.

Vice versa, I think you maybe misunderstood my point or it was badly put. A woman who has made it clear she wants treated by another woman, could be put in a really difficult position by Upton who insists the patient could just say no. If you are really ill, you might not be fully conscious. How on earth could you say no? His arrogance and lack of empathy was breathtaking. I've known some trans women who quietly get on with their lives. He appeared to have a particular fetish and demanded women in the changing room as part of that. Sandie was already in the changing room when he entered. He could have left and gone back when she had changed but he wanted validation for his particular fetish

Yes, I do understand what you mean now, Grandmabatty. I totally agree with you. Apologies if my post came across differently.

Vice versa not at all. I can see my point was unclear 😊

PoliticsNerd

Rosie51

PoliticsNerd is there any evidence any patient has ever asked for Upton's details regarding his medical history, place of residence, sexual orientation or age? I'd call that being verbose when all he needed to say was he thinks his lying about his sex is none of their business. And he is lying, no mammal let alone human has ever changed their DNA from male to female. Sex is determined by DNA not feelings.

I'm really not interested in other people's extreme prejudice Rosie51. I simply reported the actual evidence given as additional information.

Are you trying to imply my knowledge and acceptance of scientific facts is extreme prejudice? I find that very hard to reconcile with your adherence to facts and figures in other areas.

Rosie is not extremely prejudiced. Far from it - she has a sound knowledge of biology and can point out the facts in a detached and scientific manner without insulting or casting aspersions on other posters.

Also, Upton's statement is just that - a statement. It is evidence of nothing. Also, as the case is about sex ('gender' is irrelevant here) then people not enquiring about his holidays or favourite colour means about as much as not asking about his sexual orientation or age.

Thank you Doodledog.

His behaviour and his dismissive attitude to female rights means patients may be more likely to ask about the sex of their doctor.

If you can’t trust a doctor not to lie either outright, or by action, or to respect the patients, what does that say about the doctor?

I do know a trans woman doctor. He's very tall and wears high heels so towers over everybody. He's very domineering and is a Consultant so a big cheese.
I'm not shy but I'd be scared to say anything. I find him very intimidating. If he's in the Ladies I'll leave (not that he notices or cares).

Now we have to wait until July.
Fife NHS Health board have caused this delay by not providing all the documents requested in a timely manner.

The nurse manager today continued with her car crash course of evidence, and she is a Band 8 with a £53+k - £60+k salary. This tribunal beggars belief.

Galaxy

What extreme prejudice are you talking about. I believe men cannot become women.

... looks like we're back to that old chestnut again... arguing the case from the stand-point that biological sex is immutable makes you transphobic or an extremist (((sigh))).

Depressing isn't it?

Any extreme prejudice alleged by PN, could equally well be the extreme prejudice against females, exhibited by the doctor in this case.

Doodledog

Rosie is not extremely prejudiced. Far from it - she has a sound knowledge of biology and can point out the facts in a detached and scientific manner without insulting or casting aspersions on other posters.

Also, Upton's statement is just that - a statement. It is evidence of nothing. Also, as the case is about sex ('gender' is irrelevant here) then people not enquiring about his holidays or favourite colour means about as much as not asking about his sexual orientation or age.

I agree.

Mollygo as far as I know has never displayed prejudice, only biological truth.

Sorry - I meant Rosie51!

That does apply to others on the thread too.

Thank you Allira. It's rather depressing that accepting reality is so unacceptable to those who think feelings override the scientific facts that they happily malign others.

Mollygo

Any extreme prejudice alleged by PN, could equally well be the extreme prejudice against females, exhibited by the doctor in this case.

Well, yes, quite.

Now a huge delay as NHS Fife didn't produce necessary requested documents. Dr Upton's phone has been requested for forensic examination.
What's the betting NHS Fife will try to settle before the tribunal resumed in July. July!! a long wait.

I hope he is having some sleepless nights over the forensic examination of his phone. He'll have to pull up his 'big girl pants '. None of this less than edifying spectacle is doing the situation of trans people any favours.

Rosie51

PoliticsNerd is there any evidence any patient has ever asked for Upton's details regarding his medical history, place of residence, sexual orientation or age? I'd call that being verbose when all he needed to say was he thinks his lying about his sex is none of their business. And he is lying, no mammal let alone human has ever changed their DNA from male to female. Sex is determined by DNA not feelings.

The posters on this thread seem more intent on attacking me for not wanting to reply to this post than giving valuable facts, so I will attempt explain.

This post contains elements that could be considered discriminatory and could potentially promote hate speech. I have no wish to encourage more of this.

The post focuses on an individual's personal information (medical history, place of residence, sexual orientation, age) in an irrelevant and potentially intrusive manner.

It rejects of a person's self-identified sex by making definitive statements on a complex scientific topic.

It uses dismissive and belittling language. It's important to consider that using such language can contribute to a hostile environment and invalidate the experiences of others.

Although, as I said, I think there are interesting counter arguments to be made, I am not interested in this type of discussion.

Politics Nerd it is not 2016 anymore - your approach just doesnt work anymore. Strangely enough we dont need your permission to discuss this - MN made their position on gender critical debate very clear years ago. Gender critical belief is protected in law - so yes I can freely say men cant become women and you cant change sex.

The post focuses on an individual's personal information (medical history, place of residence, sexual orientation, age) in an irrelevant and potentially intrusive manner.

Oh come on, at least be accurate. Dr Upton was the one who introduced all the above in his reply to counsel. I did not. Another poster referred to it as verbose which you disputed. I questioned why he'd introduce these factors when there was no evidence anyone had ever asked him about any of them, rendering his answer verbose in my opinion too.

It rejects of a person's self-identified sex by making definitive statements on a complex scientific topic.

Perhaps you'd like to take up your argument with Professor Robert Winston who also categorically says you cannot change your sex. It might be unpalatable to Dr Upton, but even he knows his "I'm not a robot therefore I'm biological. I'm female, therefore I'm a biological female" is rubbish. An anonymous DNA test would come back as biological male. Surely you want a medical doctor to be grounded in fact not fiction?