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Want to understand what Trump is doing? Part 2

(1001 Posts)
Whitewavemark2 Thu 13-Feb-25 11:24:20

The other filled up very swiftly - so I assume a need for it’s continuation.

Churchview Fri 28-Mar-25 09:56:07

imaround

Only Trump can decide what true history is apparently

www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/03/restoring-truth-and-sanity-to-american-history/

A few years ago here some people here in the UK started waffling on about keeping statues of people who profited from slavery or not telling the truth about how the men who built grand houses did so on the backs of other people's misery.

I honestly thought they were the minority of people with a chip on their shoulder who couldn't face progress or enlightenment. I mean, how can you deny these facts and why would you not want to try to admit, educate and then move on in a better direction?

Now it's mainstream US policy.

Wyllow3 Fri 28-Mar-25 14:20:23

I recommend reading that reference in some detail, it's pretty clear which narratives of US history are to be favoured - no criticism of shameful aspects of white supremacy/need for civil rights to be included.
Which still is needed: the descriptions of what is to be included is vague and grandiose: I'd like to see what happens to the nitty gritty of school history teaching. What is going to be the dominant narrative

(History in the UK in the Trump tradition would be full of the glories of Empire, how we Brought Them Civilisation, the Great Men and Kings, etc.)

MayBee70 Fri 28-Mar-25 15:54:33

Just saw this on Facebook…”BREAKING: Pope Francis unleashes a historic attack on the Trump administration over its cruel treatment of migrants — and takes specific aim at remarks made by J.D. Vance, a Catholic convert.
So-called Christians in the MAGA movement are melting down over this...
The Pope, head of the Catholic Church, issued a rebuke of Donald Trump's mass deportation plan, stating that it removes the migrants of their inherent dignity as people and "will end badly."
Usually one to abstain from commenting directly on the internal politics of individual countries, Francis made his new remarks in a letter addressing U.S. bishops.
In it, he invoked the Bible's Book of Exodus and said that God is "always close, incarnate, migrant and refugee" and pointed out that Jesus Christ was "expelled from his own land" when his family fled to Egypt and had to "take refuge in a society and a culture foreign to his own."
Putting fake Christians to shame, Pope Francis went on to state that Jesus loved "everyone with a universal love" and taught us to see the"dignity of every human being, without exception."
"Thus, all the Christian faithful and people of good will are called upon to consider the legitimacy of norms and public policies in the light of the dignity of the person and his or her fundamental rights, not vice versa," the pope wrote.
He then turned his pen towards addressing the United States directly.
"I have followed closely the major crisis that is taking place in the United States with the initiation of a program of mass deportations," wrote Pope Francis.
"The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality," he continued.
"At the same time, one must recognize the right of a nation to defend itself and keep communities safe from those who have committed violent or serious crimes while in the country or prior to arrival."
"That said, the act of deporting people who in many cases have left their own land for reasons of extreme poverty, insecurity, exploitation, persecution or serious deterioration of the environment, damages the dignity of many men and women, and of entire families, and places them in a state of particular vulnerability and defenselessness," wrote the pope.
It was the next part of the letter that has really infuriated MAGA supporters. Recently, Vice President J.D. Vance — who was baptized and confirmed into the Catholic Church in 2019 — attacked the Church's compassionate teachings on immigration.
Proving that he either doesn't understand Catholic theology or would prefer to cherrypick what he likes and doesn't, Vance butchered a medieval concept known as "ordo amoris" or the "order of love."
"As an American leader, but also just as an American citizen, your compassion belongs first to your fellow citizens," Vance told Fox News. "That doesn’t mean you hate people from outside of your own borders, but there’s this old-school [concept] — and I think it’s a very Christian concept, by the way — that you love your family, and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens in your own country, and then, after that, you can focus and prioritize the rest of the world."
Of course, the idea that one should love those closest to you doesn't mean that you shouldn't love people from other countries. Vance shamelessly twisted the meaning to suit his party's xenophobic views. St. Augustine, who pioneered the concept that Vance was referencing, certainly didn't advocate for an authoritarian mass migration program.
In his letter, Pope Francis wrote that "Christian love is not a concentric expansion of interests that little by little extend to other persons and groups," a direct and blunt rebuke of Vance's claims.
"In other words: the human person is not a mere individual, relatively expansive, with some philanthropic feelings!" the pope continued. "The human person is a subject with dignity who, through the constitutive relationship with all, especially with the poorest, can gradually mature in his identity and vocation. The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the 'Good Samaritan', that is, by meditating on the love that builds a fraternity open to all, without exception."
Francis warned against deploying "an ideological criterion that distorts social life and imposes the will of the strongest as the criterion of truth."
He went on to urge the bishops in the United States to continue working "closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ" and "promoting fundamental human rights."
"God will richly reward all that you do for the protection and defense of those who are considered less valuable, less important or less human!" he added.
Pope Francis then turned his attention to the entire Catholic Church, urging its followers "not to give in to narratives that discriminate against and cause unnecessary suffering to our migrant and refugee brothers and sisters."
He concluded by calling for all of us to work towards a "a society that is more fraternal, inclusive and respectful of the dignity of all."
In other words, we need to build a world where MAGA is not the law of the land.”

imaround Fri 28-Mar-25 16:04:35

I doubt Vance cares what the Pope thinks. If he was worried about his soul, he wouldn't be where he is at. It is nice to see religious leaders take a stand though.

imaround Fri 28-Mar-25 22:27:17

This article offers a really good look at why the author thinks MAGA is rhe way they ate.

I think he hit the nail on the head, based on my experience with MAGA the last 10 years.

therationalleague.substack.com/p/the-justifiers-how-maga-redefines

Wyllow3 Fri 28-Mar-25 23:06:30

A real wow over that report about what the pope said, Maybee! All it will go down well in all the catholic countries in s America I wonder how many catholics will twist it pro Vance's view (the arrogance is astounding).

Wyllow3 Fri 28-Mar-25 23:07:49

Imaround (and others) have you seen the film "Hidden figures" on Netflix in UK - the sort of history I hope Trump doesnt try and wipe out of the books.

imaround Sat 29-Mar-25 00:34:29

Hw took the Musketeers Aurmen down from gocr websites and o ly put it back after backlash.

I doubt he will preserve much.

Wyllow3 Sat 29-Mar-25 00:40:44

I can't bear the idea that all the amazing struggles of the civil rights movement could be buried from history - I'm probably older than you inaround and its very vivid as I came from a political family - or womens history ...

imaround Sat 29-Mar-25 03:47:45

I keep wondering when everyone is going to have enough and fill the streets with protests.

ronib Sat 29-Mar-25 06:24:52

The Vatican is the smallest country in the world and has not one Muslim living in it. Leading by example springs to mind?

Wheniwasyourage Sat 29-Mar-25 11:21:46

And your point is, ronib? As it is the HQ of the Roman Catholic church, I would imagine that most of the inhabitants of that very small country would be - let me guess here - Roman Catholics. I don't imagine that there are many Protestant Christians, Sikhs or Buddhists living there either.

PoliticsNerd Sat 29-Mar-25 11:56:13

I'm going to repeat something I recently posted on another News and Politics thread. "... when discussions go from addressing core issues to casting blame and finding scapegoats little is actually achieved."

I've a feeling it may become my mantrasad

Wyllow3 Sat 29-Mar-25 12:32:13

imaround

I keep wondering when everyone is going to have enough and fill the streets with protests.

We don't have to go very far back - the protests after George Floyd's death in 2020 led to a wave of protests and demand for change and the Black Lives Matter movement in US, UK.

Racism is still clearly alive and kicking often more covert than before: under Biden's administration further measures were taken to culturally identify its history and current perspectives, and this is part of what Trump/Vance are trying to quash and re-write.

But it is early days imaround before the consequences of their politics become really clear to people although there is clear evidence his politics are empowering White Supremicist groups like the Trinity White Knights.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/22/white-supremacist-groups-emboldened-trump-immigration

Norah Sat 29-Mar-25 13:01:04

Wheniwasyourage

And your point is, ronib? As it is the HQ of the Roman Catholic church, I would imagine that most of the inhabitants of that very small country would be - let me guess here - Roman Catholics. I don't imagine that there are many Protestant Christians, Sikhs or Buddhists living there either.

I'd imagine all are welcome.

Wheniwasyourage Sat 29-Mar-25 13:49:02

I'm sure they are, Norah, but I don't know why Muslims were singled out by a previous poster. I have a lot of admiration for Pope Francis and am quite sure that he would welcome anyone to the Vatican. (I am not a Roman Catholic, if that matters.)

imaround Sat 29-Mar-25 14:01:39

It appears that not having Muslims at The Vatican is a good thing to the previous poster? I cant tell the actual reason for the post to be honest.

Norah Sat 29-Mar-25 14:09:18

Wheniwasyourage

I'm sure they are, Norah, but I don't know why Muslims were singled out by a previous poster. I have a lot of admiration for Pope Francis and am quite sure that he would welcome anyone to the Vatican. (I am not a Roman Catholic, if that matters.)

I'm Roman Catholic, our current Pope deserves all admiration.

Perhaps previous poster is confused who lives where and why.

ronib Sat 29-Mar-25 14:53:27

Whilst I normally admire Pope Francis, in this instance I don’t think he has thought of the practical implications of opening up a country to all comers. The Vatican is clearly a very closed place. I am more worried about the morality of deaths occurring in Ukraine and Israel,Gaza and I was hoping for some religious leaders to highlight the importance of finding peace.

Whitewavemark2 Sat 29-Mar-25 15:42:33

ronib

Whilst I normally admire Pope Francis, in this instance I don’t think he has thought of the practical implications of opening up a country to all comers. The Vatican is clearly a very closed place. I am more worried about the morality of deaths occurring in Ukraine and Israel,Gaza and I was hoping for some religious leaders to highlight the importance of finding peace.

And how does this ave to do with understanding the orange one?

Cossy Sat 29-Mar-25 15:47:07

ronib

The Vatican is the smallest country in the world and has not one Muslim living in it. Leading by example springs to mind?

I do get your point but given their population is less than 1,000 and it’s where the head of the Catholic Church lives, it’s hardly a surprise.

It’s clear though people of all faiths are welcome to visit.

ronib Sat 29-Mar-25 16:04:12

Wwm2 well the Orange One is beyond all understanding! Just thought the situation with migration wasn’t as straightforward as the Pope suggested. Not that it excuses the Orange One.

Wyllow3 Sat 29-Mar-25 16:08:26

The pope is also qualified to comment on Vance's somewhat distorted view of Catholicism which justifies the policies. Vance should have some respect.

imaround Sat 29-Mar-25 16:51:33

Musk sold X to xAI for $44 billion.

People suspect he is protecting it from creditors because Tesla stock is tanking.

Remember, billionaires are actually cash poor and rely on loans against stock for money to live off of. He is probably pretty panicked right now that Tesla stock is down so far.

It is also interesting that he got all those investments in xAI and then used the money to buy X.

Something is afoot probably.

www.cnn.com/2025/03/28/business/elon-musk-sells-x-to-xai/index.html

Aely Sat 29-Mar-25 19:56:02

I am not a Roman Catholic, but Pope Francis is one of the best they have had. I have a lot of admiration for him as a person and a Christian.

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