Who DO (Trump and Vance) think they are?

fancythat

^Unfortunately, since the end of World War II, Europe and Great Britain have encouraged the USA to consider itself the leader of the free world, ^

In what ways?

Mainly by jumping when the US stipulates how high.
And basically just being massive suck ups.

After WW2 a lot of countries including ours were dependant on help from the USA because war torn Europe had help in re-buildng.

It came with strings attached - US bases right across Europe and of course cemented by the Cold War.

However, the way the USA chose to engage has been until now was work with not against other countries - membership of the UN, the WHO, and so on.

The US also chose to take its ideology abroad with the controversial invasion of Vietnam.

I think the cracks begun to show after that especially with the rise of the EU and difference on Middle East policy which included the debacle of Iraq.

Now we are faced with a hostile entity and ?

Babs03

fancythat

Unfortunately, since the end of World War II, Europe and Great Britain have encouraged the USA to consider itself the leader of the free world,

In what ways?

Mainly by jumping when the US stipulates how high.
And basically just being massive suck ups.

And clearly really challenging sets of decisions we've not had to make ever before within our living memory.

I hope all of you commenting agree with us sending our soldiers over there to be slaughtered.

Indigo8

What a coincidence.

On 16 November last year Vladimir Shkyarov, principal male dancer with the Mariinsky Ballet Company of St Petersburg and international ballet star, fell to his death from the 5th floor balcony of his flat. He was 39.

An accident, of course, and nothing to do with the fact that he had criticised Putin for invading the Ukraine.

Indeed, and just reported another fall froma window when visited by security services.
www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/17/friends-of-russian-anti-war-singer-vadim-stroykin-cast-doubt-on-official-version-of-his-death
Definitely a pattern. In 2022 another death froma fall from a window.
www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/russian-oil-executive-dies-in-fall-from-moscow-hospital-window he also criticised the policy on Ukraine.
And Trump wants to be a pal to Putin.

So the BBC has just reported that there is talk of a phone conversation between Donald and Vlad about taking over and sharing the whole world.. I wonder what China thinks??

We are living in very frightening times. Trump and Vance have made it very clear what their opinion of Europe is and my heart goes out to the Ukranian people. I fear that Putin will already have have his sights set on the next country he wants to invade.

Menopauselbitch

I hope all of you commenting agree with us sending our soldiers over there to be slaughtered.

Apart from the fact that British soldiers would be part of a NATO peace keeping force, you need to look at what might happen if we were not prepared to protect Ukraine.

Putin has nuclear weapons and will not worry about using them if he thinks he is faced with a supine and toothless NATO. He will not just use them on the Ukrainians, but in time on the Poles, not to mention other former Soviet states and on us if it serves his purpose.

We saw where apepasement got us in 1939. let us not repeat the mistake twice in a century.

It is an enormous risk either way in my view.

Babs03

fancythat

Unfortunately, since the end of World War II, Europe and Great Britain have encouraged the USA to consider itself the leader of the free world,

In what ways?

Mainly by jumping when the US stipulates how high.
And basically just being massive suck ups.

The US has been leader if the free world because it has the largest military force that can operate anywhere on the globe, it also has the largest economy. Over the decades they have made plenty of mistakes in their military expeditions, Trump does not intend to repeat them.

The very last thing he wants is to get involved in a war of attrition with Russia that could turn nuclear. He wants a settlement in Gaza because he does not want to keep supplying arms to Israel, he doesn’t much care how that is done as long as the fighting stops.

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been very costly and achieved nothing in fact have made the situation worse. He also has to keep one eye on Taiwan, getting bogged down in Ukraine and Gaza might just tempt China to move against Taiwan.

I agree Monica. I hate a world where its necessary to have an army at all, but peacekeeping is surely something sorely needed and something to be proud of, not isolation 'nothing to do with us".

David49

Babs03

fancythat

Unfortunately, since the end of World War II, Europe and Great Britain have encouraged the USA to consider itself the leader of the free world,

In what ways?

Mainly by jumping when the US stipulates how high.
And basically just being massive suck ups.

The US has been leader if the free world because it has the largest military force that can operate anywhere on the globe, it also has the largest economy. Over the decades they have made plenty of mistakes in their military expeditions, Trump does not intend to repeat them.

The very last thing he wants is to get involved in a war of attrition with Russia that could turn nuclear. He wants a settlement in Gaza because he does not want to keep supplying arms to Israel, he doesn’t much care how that is done as long as the fighting stops.

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been very costly and achieved nothing in fact have made the situation worse. He also has to keep one eye on Taiwan, getting bogged down in Ukraine and Gaza might just tempt China to move against Taiwan.

I do think that Trump believes in what he is doing, but I am not convinced that he 'knows' what he is doing. He approaches politics in a transactional way as if he is running a business. Doing a deal with Putin over rich minerals in the part of Ukraine that Russia will keep. But politics is also about people, and I very much doubt that Gazans, other Arab nations or Ukrainians, are going to just go along with his plans for a new world order. Or Europeans including the UK for that matter. Of course you could say 'tough' there isn't much they can do about it. But is that true? Couldn't Trump's approach lead to even more conflict and unrest as well as grudge wars with Europe etc.

I agree with your analysis thats it's questionable how far Trump really can see consequences in such a complex interactive situation.
He can't control things as much as he imagines he can.

woodenspoon

No Babs03. I think you’ve read far more into what I said and are showing your own prejudice.

IF Trump manages to bring this war to an end we all benefit. I’m not one to want everlasting wars myself. I think of the money, billions, we are sending to Ukraine, money which could be better spent here in this country. I also think of the lives lost through these wars without end.

IF Trump manages to bring this to a close, and nobody really knows, it will benefit us all.

Not all European countries are our friends you know. They might say they are when they want our money, but I don’t believe they all are.

Like you, I’m entitled to my views. As a matter of interest weren’t you on another thread extolling the virtues of Iran, or was that another poster?

That was me, on the thread about the couple detained in Iran. If you are going to use my views, get them right please. I said that Iran/Persia was a civilisation with a reputation for fine art, literature, poetry, buildings. Nowhere is this anything like support for the current extreme administration.

HousePlantQueen

woodenspoon

No Babs03. I think you’ve read far more into what I said and are showing your own prejudice.

IF Trump manages to bring this war to an end we all benefit. I’m not one to want everlasting wars myself. I think of the money, billions, we are sending to Ukraine, money which could be better spent here in this country. I also think of the lives lost through these wars without end.

IF Trump manages to bring this to a close, and nobody really knows, it will benefit us all.

Not all European countries are our friends you know. They might say they are when they want our money, but I don’t believe they all are.

Like you, I’m entitled to my views. As a matter of interest weren’t you on another thread extolling the virtues of Iran, or was that another poster?

That was me, on the thread about the couple detained in Iran. If you are going to use my views, get them right please. I said that Iran/Persia was a civilisation with a reputation for fine art, literature, poetry, buildings. Nowhere is this anything like support for the current extreme administration.

I think you’ll find it was her because she replied to me saying so! Get it right please.

Wyllow3

I agree Monica. I hate a world where its necessary to have an army at all, but peacekeeping is surely something sorely needed and something to be proud of, not isolation 'nothing to do with us".

Wyllow3 we will never have a world where armies are not necessary. Animals fight for territory or leadership of their group. Eat or be eaten has helped life of all kinds develop on earth since life first started.

The reason the US has been so dominant since 1945 is because every European country came out of WW2 bankrupt and dependent on loans and grants, the Marshall Plan, from the US to rebuild their countries and their countries - and it is not wise to bite the hand that feeds you.

With the collapse of the Soviet Union, it was inevitable that the US should want to withdraw and leave Europe to manage its own defence. What is happening now should have happened 20 years ago, when the Soviet Union was still struggling, not left until a psychopathic dictator has (again) taken over Russia.

They will not be excluded

How are you so sure? If President Trump has his way, Palestinians will have no say in their disposal future.

As a very young child I can remember my mother listening to Churchill’s original Iron Curtain speech made in America just after WW2+. Since then some countries have come out from behind that curtain and found a kind of freedom but this is now what Putin now wants back - the old Soviet Union . We have been walking blindfold into this situation for years .
During decades , such as the 60s, 70s etc Churchill fell out of favour , being charged with “ warmongering “ instead of appeasing but now I’m seeing placards saying “ Be more Churchill , less Chamberlain “ . Europe has become complacent and lazy but maybe this situation will jerk us into reality.

MaizieD

I think they're behaving very much as the European 'great powers' have done over the past 2 centuries. Carving up other people's lands and installing unasked for regimes.

We don't do it any more. But we've been telling the USA that it's the 'Leader of the Western World' for so long that Trump thinks that they not only lead it but they can order it to suit himself.

You have posted my recent thinking MaizieD.

Yes, this mirrors precisely what Great Britain did when building its empire. Perhaps we could gather historical experts to offer insights into dealing with Emperor Trump and his entourage. Presumably, our aim would be to prevent him/America from profiting from the denuding of Ukraine's sovereignty.

Regarding the "Leader of the Western World" role, it will likely require a significant number of Europeans – including British Europeans – to be prepared to cease buying from America, both individually and as countries. I have no wish to harm the American people, but only they can remove this man from power."

Yes I hope so too, Caro41.

Putin is still in his heart a Soviet communist. He is also unable to appear weak because he is Russian. However, his crazy plan to take Ukraine didn't work and he has had to spend time thinking how he can save face.

Trump is only a puppet for Putin- that's how he sees people, the ones he can control and the ones he can destroy.

He knows now that he can't control Europe on his own so has had to befriend Trump. The problem is they are both weak men wanting to appear strong. I think they underestimated the strength of Europe.

My positive side thinks we can do this because despite our differences Europe has always found its old alliances.
My negative side things it may be too late- we should have stood up to Putin years ago and didn't, just seeking Russian money instead.

Now we do have to wake up, and pretty quickly!

“I do think that Trump believes in what he is doing, but I am not convinced that he 'knows' what he is doing. He approaches politics in a transactional way as if he is running a business.”

Yes as a business with no room for emotion, he wants the best value from everything, he really hates the “woke” social changes that were made by Biden.
A stark contrast to us and EU where we want to support little Ukraine, but we are toothless tigers and can only roar but not bite, we can do nothing without the US

I am probably speaking the obvious.

But Trump now has much power.
Not sure in reality how much he listens to anyone else.

The EU on the other hand - I dont know how many countries, with how many groups of voters,
I doubt 19 countries or however many, could even all be in agreement on whatever sort of coffee to serve at functions.

So if “little” Ukraine can hold off Russia, why do we think that a United Europe can’t do the same without USA help?

I guess the clue is in “United”

334 million - population of US. 1 country. 1 leader.

449 million - population of the EU. 27 countries. 27 leaders.