Who DO (Trump and Vance) think they are?

Yes that’s right.

But if Europe is under direct threat from Russia, would that not concentrate minds?

Whitewavemark2

So if “little” Ukraine can hold off Russia, why do we think that a United Europe can’t do the same without USA help?

I guess the clue is in “United”

Sadly they are not united. Even yesterday’s round table meeting showed that. The Germans do not want to send troops, nor do Spain or Poland. The German chancellor said he was very irritated by the question. There are too many disparate points of view, meetings about meetings, never any agreement and all jockeying for position. Macron posing for photos trying to assume importance.

Meanwhile, in Saudi Arabia, the main players are already meeting to thrash out a way forward. Europe is on the sidelines.

The point is that europe has overall a bigger military power (except nuclear of course) than Russia, and look how dismally Russia military has performed in Ukraine.

What I’m trying to say is that we must consider defence without USA assistance, as the USA is no longer a dependable ally, or even an ally of any sort?

When Vance can tell us that our values no longer run in parallel with the USA and that we have no freedom of speech, yet his president is cosying up to a leader who has happily killed people criticising him and has never tolerated freedom of speech, then I think we need to re-evaluate our so called friendship.

General Keith Kellogg, Trumps special adviser, is in Brussels today and later Poland. Next stop, Ukraine itself. Courtesy BBC News.

Whitewavemark2

Yes that’s right.

But if Europe is under direct threat from Russia, would that not concentrate minds?

We would hope so.

Meanwhile, in Saudi Arabia, the main players are already meeting to thrash out a way forward. Europe is on the sidelines.

The main players? Zelensky is one of the main players. He isn't there.

Meanwhile, in today's Financial Times - Trumps envoy is trying to get the Romanian government to return the Tate brothers' passports so they can travel freely.

You mean the sex traffickers and rapists?

Whitewavemark2

The point is that europe has overall a bigger military power (except nuclear of course) than Russia, and look how dismally Russia military has performed in Ukraine.

What I’m trying to say is that we must consider defence without USA assistance, as the USA is no longer a dependable ally, or even an ally of any sort?

When Vance can tell us that our values no longer run in parallel with the USA and that we have no freedom of speech, yet his president is cosying up to a leader who has happily killed people criticising him and has never tolerated freedom of speech, then I think we need to re-evaluate our so called friendship.

Yes.

Churchview

*Meanwhile, in Saudi Arabia, the main players are already meeting to thrash out a way forward. Europe is on the sidelines.*

The main players? Zelensky is one of the main players. He isn't there.

Meanwhile, in today's Financial Times - Trumps envoy is trying to get the Romanian government to return the Tate brothers' passports so they can travel freely.

That would be absolutely appalling. David Tate and his ilk are a real danger to our teenage boys.

Under Trump the USA is isolating itself from Europe and seems to be getting friendly with Russia. It's clear he wants something they have as the accumulation of wealth is Trump's main aim.
He doesn't care for Ukraine and only wants to stop the war for his own benefit. If Ukraine loses land that's nothing to concern him.

Whitewavemark2

The point is that europe has overall a bigger military power (except nuclear of course) than Russia, and look how dismally Russia military has performed in Ukraine.

What I’m trying to say is that we must consider defence without USA assistance, as the USA is no longer a dependable ally, or even an ally of any sort?

When Vance can tell us that our values no longer run in parallel with the USA and that we have no freedom of speech, yet his president is cosying up to a leader who has happily killed people criticising him and has never tolerated freedom of speech, then I think we need to re-evaluate our so called friendship.

Totally agree WW.

I don’t think we have any choice really.

I can’t get my head around the idea that the Uk is dependent on another superpower in this way. Of course Vance must mean that the USA no longer subscribes to net zero and woke ideology expanded under Biden and that is their prerogative. As it is ours to pursue them.

I don't think USA is bothered by Russia at all.

Trump wants Europe to pay up and defend themselves. USA is wanting its military spend to go towards defending against China.

Zelenskyy himself said without the USA the war would be over.

No idea what will happen but surely nobody wants this war to continue endlessly. The loss of life is horrific. The cost exorbitant.

So what so we do?

Cossy

Whitewavemark2

The point is that europe has overall a bigger military power (except nuclear of course) than Russia, and look how dismally Russia military has performed in Ukraine.

What I’m trying to say is that we must consider defence without USA assistance, as the USA is no longer a dependable ally, or even an ally of any sort?

When Vance can tell us that our values no longer run in parallel with the USA and that we have no freedom of speech, yet his president is cosying up to a leader who has happily killed people criticising him and has never tolerated freedom of speech, then I think we need to re-evaluate our so called friendship.

Yes.

Of course..

why on earth is Trump even remotely bothered about Andrew Tate? wtf is going on

JaneJudge

why on earth is Trump even remotely bothered about Andrew Tate? wtf is going on

Trump has a penchant for releasing criminals who support him.

Rule of law is simply an inconvenience.

It's time the UK stood together. Trump, Vance, Musk and others have been trying to undermine us over the last months. They want to weaken
us and other European countries.
Weakness leads to compliance. Trump thinks himself leader of the Western world and he doesn't want any other country defying him.
We shouldn't give him an easy ride.

We can vote with our purses.

I was looking for a cat feeder yesterday and the one I thought suitable was made in USA.

I have thought again, and found one made in Europe.

Businesses will soon get the message if they are left with stock made in USA - won’t re- order.

ronib

I can’t get my head around the idea that the Uk is dependent on another superpower in this way. Of course Vance must mean that the USA no longer subscribes to net zero and woke ideology expanded under Biden and that is their prerogative. As it is ours to pursue them.

The point being made is that we cannot allow ourselves to be dependent for our defence on a country whose head of state makes no bones about A) his preference for closeness to a superpower which would love to exert its influence (financial and militarily) over us. and B) the fact that he is himself withdrawing support (financial and military) from NATO - the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation whose main reason for existence is all members supporting one another against any aggression by another power.

Imagine Trump taking the US so far into the orbit of Vladimir Putin and his friends that they are drawn into promising to support Putin in the event of a conflict. Given Trump's instinctive attraction to whoever convinces him that they are the most powerful player in any situation, that is an unwelcome but quite imaginable scenario.

We would have no chance at all of escaping becoming either a vassal state of Russia, or an Olde Englishe theme park under Trump.

I am not predicting this will happen - just warning that we have to be prepared to prevent it ever happening. A wise country with a wise government sees what could happen, and takes steps to make sure it doesn't.

Would you and others be willing to increase the Uk defence spending? Maybe by a huge amount?
Which to be fair to the Military, they have been warning about decreased spending for many years.

In the light of US disengagement with NATO, yes.

Those who believe that we should not be demonstrating "warlike" attitudes by increasing our defensive readiness have a slight point - but lying on our backs and exposing a vulnerable soft underbelly of UNreadiness while predators prowl round us is not a very good attitude either.

Frankly we have no choice but to increase our defence spending.

Whitewavemark2

Frankly we have no choice but to increase our defence spending.

Totally agree

And that's exactly what Trump wants us to do

fancythat

Would you and others be willing to increase the Uk defence spending? Maybe by a huge amount?
Which to be fair to the Military, they have been warning about decreased spending for many years.

Totally in favour.

Strong in numbers, expertly trained and well equipped armed services provides a range of careers and qualifications.

They also generate jobs in many other areas supplying the military.

It also sends strong signals to leaders around the globe, acts as a deterrent to hostile governments.

How are we going to pay for more than a modest increase? What will go? Are the public prepared for higher taxes for it?