Ukraine Plan to go forward?

(The above was from the BBC I player news feed)

I think the money will be coming from frozen Russian assets if I remember rightly.

Yes £1.5bn I think.

I’ve said on another thread though that 200% Trump will reject it.

That should of course been 100%

Am not hopeful that Trump will agree with any of it. Seeing a party he wasn't invited to with Zelenskyy belle of the ball - even getting an invitation to see the King - will not go down well, especially when Trump thought he had got it all sewn up already.
I predict some childish retorts from the POTUS.

It's more important to get something that Putin can agree with though, than something that Trump can agree with.
Putin & Zelensky are the war leaders and however important America has been in this conflict till now, if they are not giving aid or weaponry from now on in, then their stakes in the peace plan diminish.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy has said America’s support is crucial as he arrived in the UK to meet Keir Starmer after his clash with Donald Trump

If he thinks that then we must hope that something can be sorted

Rula

*Volodymyr Zelenskyy has said America’s support is crucial as he arrived in the UK to meet Keir Starmer after his clash with Donald Trump*

If he thinks that then we must hope that something can be sorted

You'd think.
But we are dealing with the ego of Trump here remember.

Sounds like a good plan but have to agree that DT won’t like it, he wants to be the one in charge getting ‘a deal’. He may have to go along with it in the end tho.
Trump and his cronies seem like nothing more than cheap gangsters and his line on tv ‘ you gotta be more thankful!’ Could be said by any Don. Don Trump is an apt name for him.

Sadly, (realistically?) what are the London talks going to resolve? The fact is, that Trump and 74% of the Republican Party are not prepared to keep pumping billions of dollars of military aid into Ukraine, when the war is clearly at a stalemate 3 years after it started.

The US supplies around 60% of the total military assistance, so what is Europe going to do to prop up Zelensky? Start a war with Russia?

Like it or not, Zelensky has to make peace with Russia and if that means giving up Territory, then sadly, so be it. As Trump said, he has no cards to play. Peter Mandelson clearly realises this as well, hence his comments.

The London talks are not the "end game", tho.

They are based on that very assumption that Trump will not keep on paying what it did, so plans are needed in place whilst peace/longer term plans explored.
Which will have to discuss territory.

At least something is on the table which answers Trumps question, "what is Europe doing?"

Because Trump has not come up with any plan except "give me your minerals...." and grumble about Europe.

Wyllow3

The London talks are not the "end game", tho.

They are based on that very assumption that Trump will not keep on paying what it did, so plans are needed in place whilst peace/longer term plans explored.
Which will have to discuss territory.

At least something is on the table which answers Trumps question, "what is Europe doing?"

Because Trump has not come up with any plan except "give me your minerals...." and grumble about Europe.

That’s exactly right wyllow

Wyllow3

The London talks are not the "end game", tho.

They are based on that very assumption that Trump will not keep on paying what it did, so plans are needed in place whilst peace/longer term plans explored.
Which will have to discuss territory.

At least something is on the table which answers Trumps question, "what is Europe doing?"

Because Trump has not come up with any plan except "give me your minerals...." and grumble about Europe.

Agreed.

Also, Mr. Mandelson said European nations must ensure an effective military deterrent against further Russian aggression, he hopes United States could serve as an “ultimate backstop” against Russia “if things get really nasty.”

Make plans.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Sadly, (realistically?) what are the London talks going to resolve? The fact is, that Trump and 74% of the Republican Party are not prepared to keep pumping billions of dollars of military aid into Ukraine, when the war is clearly at a stalemate 3 years after it started.

The US supplies around 60% of the total military assistance, so what is Europe going to do to prop up Zelensky? Start a war with Russia?

Like it or not, Zelensky has to make peace with Russia and if that means giving up Territory, then sadly, so be it. As Trump said, he has no cards to play. Peter Mandelson clearly realises this as well, hence his comments.

"The Kremlin has praised what it perceives as the U.S.'s foreign policy shift, claiming on March 2 that it "aligns" with its "vision" after U.S. President Donald Trump's public dispute with President Volodymyr Zelensky."

Do you not think the stats may change as the information gets through to the population? More of the European countries are talking about not supporting the aggressor against the agressed. More are speaking out about not being able to keep territory claimed by force. The message may take a while but it is getting out to US electors, many were just as horrified as our country appears to be by Donsld Trump's behaviour.

And you are right. It will be difficult for Europe to replace some of what the US supplies but we did without them for years in WW2 so I'm sure we will act for what is right this time too. So far, as I understand it, we are only talking about using the interest on the Russian money but there are talks about using it all. This could mean Europeans rebuilding their own defence industries, tech etc, and never again being so beholden to America.

Why won't the USA agree to be backstop in return for the mineral deal?

Again, what on earth has he discussed with Putin?

I feel suspicious that some kind of agreements were reached with Putin and part of the Trump/Vance anger on Friday was that getting a mineral deal had been promised to Putin by Trump in some way "We can deliver this"

Trump will change his stance provided he can claim to have forced the European countries to do his bidding. Arms sales to other countries is big business for the US and keeps a lot of people employed, refusing to work with European countries will be cutting off his nose to spite his face. I don't thing the US will want them to start manufacturing their own arms or buying from France for eg so there's room for negotiation. Trump's approval rating is starting to drop and they've got mid terms coming up in 2026 with some elections in 2025. Despite what Trump has said he didn't have a huge majority so mid terms could harm his position. The thing to remember about Trump is that he is consistently inconsistent in what he says and what he does.

Putin could end the war now by withdrawing his troops from Ukraine.

We are planning around him and not with him.

Eventually he will have to come to the table too.

Wyllow3

Why won't the USA agree to be backstop in return for the mineral deal?

Again, what on earth has he discussed with Putin?

I feel suspicious that some kind of agreements were reached with Putin and part of the Trump/Vance anger on Friday was that getting a mineral deal had been promised to Putin by Trump in some way "We can deliver this"

That’s what I think too, I’d like to know if Republican Americans actually now trust Russia, or if they think that Trump’s dance will lead to a new relationship with Russia. Shallow I know, but the public have been brought up with Russians as the bad guys in all the movies.

I don't think most Americans will trust Russia. Trump, in his first term, thought he'd made diplomatic progress with North Korea but of course he hadn't. I think Republicans will be even more sceptical of making deals with Putin. Trump's attempt at making peace in Gaza seems to have gone very quiet too.

I don't think they should Willow, but that is my bias, just as others are biased towards support for Trump.

I just remember that the last payment for lease-lend was made on 29 December 2006 for the sum of about $83m USD (£45.5m) to the United States. We never once tried to negotiate it down - it was a debt of honour.

Interestingly the US never paid France its Revolution debt. It seems that the US puts a high price on the democracy of others but expect to pay nothing to allies for there own. At the beginning of WWII America were neutral but their leader now seems to want to side with the aggressor.

Allies change. I hope the US remains ours but I would put that at 50/50 over time.

foxie48

I don't think most Americans will trust Russia. Trump, in his first term, thought he'd made diplomatic progress with North Korea but of course he hadn't. I think Republicans will be even more sceptical of making deals with Putin. Trump's attempt at making peace in Gaza seems to have gone very quiet too.

I just found this, from a new CBS/YouGov survey out today. ‘Most Americans (66%) see Russia as unfriendly or an enemy, but 41% of Republicans call it friendly or an ally, compared with 26% of Democrats who say the same.’

Well, whatever may or may not happen, it's all dependant on the increasingly erratic and unpredictable behaviour of an out-of-control madman, the dictator Trump, who obviously thinks the world functions solely for his benefit and to hell with any consequences.

But the American electorate must be happy with him. They democratically gave him all this unlimited power.

PoliticsNerd

I don't think they should Willow, but that is my bias, just as others are biased towards support for Trump.

I just remember that the last payment for lease-lend was made on 29 December 2006 for the sum of about $83m USD (£45.5m) to the United States. We never once tried to negotiate it down - it was a debt of honour.

Interestingly the US never paid France its Revolution debt. It seems that the US puts a high price on the democracy of others but expect to pay nothing to allies for there own. At the beginning of WWII America were neutral but their leader now seems to want to side with the aggressor.

Allies change. I hope the US remains ours but I would put that at 50/50 over time.

We’ve only recently paid this back
“Most people will remember 2015 as the year in which the coalition Government of David Cameron and Nick Clegg broke up, Andy Murray led Britain's tennis team to victory in the Davis Cup and a 51,000-tonne tanker, the Hoegh Osaka, ran aground in the Solent.

But few will know it was also the year in which the UK Government finally paid off a debt that had allowed it to fund a huge compensation bill for Britons who lost out financially when slavery was abolished 179 years earlier, when William IV was on the throne.

In the early 1830s, the Government borrowed £20 million (more than £2.4 billion in today's money) to fund the Slavery Abolition Act 1833 and compensate Britons for the loss of their "property" – their possession of women, men and children in the Caribbean.

This was a colossal sum, approximately equivalent to 40 per cent of the Government's total annual expenditure. It was so big, in fact, that the Government borrowed the money from the financial markets and asked for well over a century in which to pay it back.”

They seem to think extortion, including the deal on minerals, is the right way to live. Back to the Al Capone reference.