Trump Pauses Aid To Ukraine

You really won't see ronib that a PM has to meet lots of different leaders and Starmer has the measure of Trump? You are so blinkered to your own jaundiced view that no other viewpoint is possible

ronib

RosieandMaw so Americans should be relieved that at last a president has looked for a cessation of hostilities and loss of life. It’s perfectly moral to ask Z to stop the slaughter and discuss a peace plan. For Starmer and Macron to pretend that Ukraine can win is grossly irresponsible and foolish. Get over it. Ukraine lost.

Do you actually mean that? Or ois it a typo?
Do you mean It’s perfectly moral to ask Putin to stop the slaughter and discuss a peace plan.?
Surely?

If the UK were to be invaded and, for example, Surrey and Kent taken over by foreign forces, do you think we should fight back or just roll over and accept the loss of part of our country? Then sit back whilst the rest was gradually taken over?

Lathyrus3

I’ve just spent a bit of time looking up secession from the US union and was quite surprised to see that there axa number of States that have explored this in the past twenty years, including Alaska, Hawaii and California.

A split USA. It’s happened before.

A split USA. It’s happened before

I think it was called a Civil War.

Yes, this withdrawal of aid, or rather pausing, was predictable.

I too fear that harm may come to Zelensky.

I think Trump had assured Putin that getting Zelenskyy to sign the minerals deal would be a pushover and then he (Trump) could do some deal with Russia over it. He has now lost face with Putin which must anger him.
The only way he can deal with the current situation is by belittling Europe. With luck he may say that he wouldn't touch Balmoral with a barge pole.

US claims of how much they have poured into protecting Ukraine are challenged by this poster (Pat Liquori) and others, replying to a triumphant "Republican Patriots" FB post blazoning "Ukraines unlimited credit card from the United States is CANCELED!"

Pat Liquori Wait what a minute wait a minute what really let me help you do some math here how much did we give Ukraine?? 500 billion. 350 billion.$190 billion.

If you picked $190 billion you pick correctly.

75% of that was military equipment tanks artillery nestles the point being all that money came back to the United States because what we gave them was outdated technology good equipment but outdated thus for the money that was aimed for Ukraine went back into America's economy by way of military complex new weapons more technology were made to replace the older ones.

Now that we give Putin all of his demands we're at the same time telling Ukraine they have to give up $500 billion dollars of their resources what a hell of an interest rate.
And for a peace loving country a democratic elected president to be illegally invaded.

After an agreement was made between the United States the United Kingdom and Russia that if Ukraine gave up its nukes that's right they had nukes between the three countries we would respect and protect their territory integrity and their independence Putin has attacked that country twice so he doesn't keep deals we not only strong arm Ukraine into surrendering we steal their resources Putin wants their military less than 100,000 Putin wants they cannot get weapons from no other country they can't export them.

Putin wants the Democratic Republican president zelensky to step down.
Putin wants to keep all the territory Ukraine does not get anything in exchange for the territory of Russia that they have held for 8 months.
Putin wants all the sanctions lifted he wants back in and as a member at the G7.
Remember all zielinsky ever asked for was security..

Then replies to Pat Liquori's post -
Brian Kennedy Pat Liquori well said. Budapest Agreement of 1994. People need a history lesson to understand what has been going on and why we own some responsibility. NATO was not supposed to expand but it did expand to include the Soviet bloc nations, Russia is pissed, and now Ukraine wants into NATO. That is in summary how we got to this point.
Look it up people. Now that doesn’t mean we keep footing the bill forever or even for 1 more day but this war needs to end and end peacefully.

Kimberly Sargent Zellinksky also wants assurances the US will protect him, arms are fine but not sending our troops there. He also wants the Iron dome technology, which would put Israel at risk if the wrong people got a hold of it and figured a way around it.

Trevor Judy to add to that only about 85 billion of that was actually dispersed. The rest is still with us allocated, but now being froze.

Caroline De Martini and Russia has broken the The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances Agreement

Nicolas Pasqualetto Nice to see some people still able to verify some informations

Jane Collins Thank you Pat, finally, someone sees it for exactly what it is, I pray many people read this

Allira

ronib

RosieandMaw so Americans should be relieved that at last a president has looked for a cessation of hostilities and loss of life. It’s perfectly moral to ask Z to stop the slaughter and discuss a peace plan. For Starmer and Macron to pretend that Ukraine can win is grossly irresponsible and foolish. Get over it. Ukraine lost.

Do you actually mean that? Or ois it a typo?
Do you mean It’s perfectly moral to ask Putin to stop the slaughter and discuss a peace plan.?
Surely?

If the UK were to be invaded and, for example, Surrey and Kent taken over by foreign forces, do you think we should fight back or just roll over and accept the loss of part of our country? Then sit back whilst the rest was gradually taken over?

My feelings, too.

When I read things like "get over it, Ukraine lost" I think, where's the caring, where's the humanity for them, where's any understanding of consequences for their future, that as a country we have nurtured?

Caleo

Robots from Russian propaganda infiltrate many public media such as some newspapers and broadcasters. I doubt if any of the Grans are themselves robots however some Grans read polluted newspapers and watch unsafe broadcasts.

I have had serious doubts about this along with internet “outages” and even wonder if it warrants a separate thread.
How better to paralyse a country than causing its NHS computers to fail (recently) its airport computers to fail (more than once) this effectively stopping air traffic, personal or freight, into a country, banking and the financial institutions (at least three times I can think of this year alone) ? A good friend had to sit outside the house she was due to move into last Friday while solicitors tried to overcome whichever bank it was going down thus preventing completion.
Factor in dependence on AI, the ease of hacking into internet communication (voicemail, mobile phones) and I wonder if it isnot so much nuclear warfare we need to fear, but creeping undermining of our health, financial, transport, defence and communication systems.

Caleo

Foxie, in view of your recent message would you say that Mr Trump is excessively populist in his policies?

Only when he's up for election, once in the Oval office he is only there for himself.

The question that I want an answer to is this. What has made the president of the USA do everything that Putin would want? Is it as simple as Trump wanting to overturn everything that the Biden administration did? Or is Putin holding the cards in Trump's game ?

Grandmabatty

I completely deny ronib's viewpoint while acknowledging her/his right to hold it. I feel she/he and David appear to be in a minority, wishing for Zelensky to settle and appease Putin. In addition, her/his jaundiced view of the United Kingdom is not wholly accurate and says more about her/him. I'm proud that Starmer tried to talk to Trump and then promptly had a meeting with European leaders and Canada. I suspect that meeting was already organised in the event of trump treating Zelensky the way he then did.
Appeasement is never a good idea with bullies- they come back to hit harder. Europe and Canada have many more available troops than Russia, even counting America out. Russia is weaker than it's been. Ukraine have won back a city previously held by Russia.

I completely agree.

I also agree that anyone on Gransnet is able to form and share their own views and beliefs.

There are still many good things about the UK, most of us wake each morning in our own beds, enjoy our cup of tea/coffee etc in peace, we don’t get showered with bullets as we walk around our streets, we don’t see entire towns blown to oblivion, many of us have loyal friends and families ready to help us in our hours of needs.

There is much wrong here in our homeland, but there is so much more that is good

”If the UK were to be invaded and, for example, Surrey and Kent taken over by foreign forces, do you think we should fight back or just roll over and accept the loss of part of our country? Then sit back whilst the rest was gradually taken over?”

Good question Allira.

This has been asked several times of those supporting appeasement of Putin… yet to read an answer!

The War began because Ukraine wanted to join NATO, Russia immediately annexed Crimea, to protect its bases. After 3 yrs of talks Ukraine didn’t change its aims, they could have said OK we remain neutral, they didn’t, we know the result.

Yes the US did give Ukraine nuclear defence guarantees, if there had been a nuclear exchange it would have involved NATO countries for sure, The reality is that much of the armaments were from Cold War stockpiles and would have been scrapped at some stage and replaced. The real issue is escalating the war to win back occupied land and risk a wider conflict, the US has said no in no uncertain terms.

Ukraine has not yet agreed to the US plan for peace, Zelensky obviously wants the best deal he can get, he is going to need to change his tone, because Russia has got to be satisfied and the US if he wants security - Europe cannot do it alone.

It's just that it's so unfair!! I know that's childish but what's happening just isn't right. What is wrong with the world?

David49

The War began because Ukraine wanted to join NATO, Russia immediately annexed Crimea, to protect its bases. After 3 yrs of talks Ukraine didn’t change its aims, they could have said OK we remain neutral, they didn’t, we know the result.

Yes the US did give Ukraine nuclear defence guarantees, if there had been a nuclear exchange it would have involved NATO countries for sure, The reality is that much of the armaments were from Cold War stockpiles and would have been scrapped at some stage and replaced. The real issue is escalating the war to win back occupied land and risk a wider conflict, the US has said no in no uncertain terms.

Ukraine has not yet agreed to the US plan for peace, Zelensky obviously wants the best deal he can get, he is going to need to change his tone, because Russia has got to be satisfied and the US if he wants security - Europe cannot do it alone.

The war began because of Putin!

Putin can make objections to other countries plans, but that’s all, Ukraine is a country in its own right and can discuss joining NATO if it so desires.

All of this is down to Putin, not Ukraine.

If the UK were to be invaded and, for example, Surrey and Kent taken over by foreign forces, do you think we should fight back or just roll over and accept the loss of part of our country? Then sit back whilst the rest was gradually taken over ?

Oh they’re welcome to the stockbroker belt of Surrey and Kent but rest assured that if they got as far as Milton Keynes, our system of roundabouts would totally confuse and ultimately defeat them!
(Only joking! Pax Kent, Surrey and Sussex grans)

”It’s perfectly moral to ask Z to stop the slaughter and discuss a peace plan”

ronib what?

Typo surely, in which case you’re at liberty to amend it.

If not a typo, then shame on you!

David

What "US plan for peace?

I dont see one.

No one seems to understand that Putin was reacting to years of border skirmishes and it had been his intention to reclaim the Russian part of Ukraine very quickly. Many people had been killed and it had been Putin’s intention to resolve this conflict by waging a short war. Not turning out as planned though so a case could be made to bring the two sides together to resolve this rather than fight at the expense of other countries for an indefinite period. It is almost a civil war as one third of Ukraine thinks of itself as Russian Ukrainian I understand. It’s a problem too for Russia to have its border security breached with the implication that NATO will admit Ukraine. Threatening Russia on its borders plus a problem with how Ukraine works as a whole country are just two factors in the mix.

PoliticsNerd

Can I suggest that to Russia post should just be ignored? People supporting Putin will not be persuaded.

Can you explain this post more fully please?

Wyllow3

David

What "US plan for peace?

I dont see one.

Precisely Wyllow.

Where is this so-called peace plan?

There’s a minerals deal - which is not a peace plan by any stretch of the imagination!

I think you are wrong David49 my understanding is that before2014 when Russia invaded Ukraine for the first time, Russia didn't have any bases in Crimea. It was after that aggression that Ukraine asked to join NATO because they feared further incursion into Ukraine by the Russians. However, why should a peaceful country not intent on expansion fear a neighbour becoming a member of NATO? NATO is an alliance to protect countries not to attack them. It's why Finland and Sweden asked to join, they are afraid of Russia and Putin's desire for expansion.

Z is refusing to discuss peace options. Unfortunately shame on him.

What peace options?

NATO wants to place missiles pointing at Russia from Ukraine- is the fear from Russia. Or so I understand …. Given the general hostility towards Russia from the West, it’s scarcely surprising that some form of extreme distrust is in operation. The West has not covered itself in glory.

We don’t know Wyllow3 Z flatly refused to think peace was remotely possible.