Trans women and single-sex spaces

Lathyrus3

Actually, men when they are ill or in distress, or even when not in command of themselves, do often play around with their private parts. It’s a comfort thing. A reversion to childhood.

It’s not very nice lying next door to one on a ward even if it’s not directed at you personally. Pyjamas can sometimes be very revealing.

If you have the curtain pulled across you can still hear the grunts and sighs.

I hope mixed wards will now become a thing of the past.

About 30 years ago, or thereabouts, Tony Blair appointed the late Frank Dobson as Health Minister. He vowed to wipe out mixed sex wards. And here we are......still waiting.

Mollygo

Whitewavemark2

When DH was in hospital before Christmas, he was in a mixed ward for a time, and it simply made no impact on me nor him (he was pretty ill) until he ended in another - less acute ward which was all male. Getting better seemed more important than who was what sex - that would have seemed pretty small minded in the scheme of things at the time.

When one DD was on a mental health ward where she and other patients were already suffering from trauma in some cases involving males, the fact that the nurses were unable/unwilling to remove the TIM blatantly displaying what he was, as he said he was a woman, because they were
a) afraid of him and
b) afraid of the the consequences and the accusations of transphobia, if they tried, impacted heavily on female patients’ chances of getting better.

Would you say that was small minded too?

The problems caused by certain TIM and their ardent supporters are what has caused the need for the current decision.

Do you think the TIM/TW who caused this care about other trans, any more than they care about females?

Mollygo

DH was suffering from sepsis and delirious. Sepsis has something like a 40% mortality.

Frankly I would indeed have questioned myself and my small mindedness if my energy was put into moving him to a single sex ward. My priority was to see him live. All the patients on that ward were extremely ill, and most would be unaware if anyone was in the ward let alone what sex they were. Once they were recovering, they were moved out to a single sex ward.

Before my lovely husband was moved into a small side ward for end of life care, he was 4 days on a men’s ward. One man constantly moved clothes and bedding to expose his penis. Nurses walking by would say “x, you’re exposing yourself, please cover up,’.

WWM2
That just shows how different circumstances have different needs. To be unaware, is one need.
To be very aware and traumatised by an ill intentioned presence highlights a different need.

Don’t laugh at me but perhaps we need 4 genders - while still only 2 biological sexes.
Male, female, trans men and trans women.
So 4 sets of changing rooms, loos, showers, gym facilities etc but retaining the legal right to single sex spaces.

It does Mollygo and demonstrates exactly what I advocated for up thread. Only those in high dependency should be on a mixed sex ward. Ambulant or otherwise aware patients need the dignity of single sex wards. That your daughter was further traumatised by a male on her mental health ward is totally wrong, and really should attract more sympathy and understanding.

DH was suffering from sepsis and delirious. Sepsis has something like a 40% mortality.

I had sepsis too, Whitwave but wasn't delirious so can clearly remember this very large elderly man. He seemed to be unaware of what he was standing and doing.
The older woman in the next bed was clearly quite frightened.

RosieandherMaw

Don’t laugh at me but perhaps we need 4 genders - while still only 2 biological sexes.
Male, female, trans men and trans women.
So 4 sets of changing rooms, loos, showers, gym facilities etc but retaining the legal right to single sex spaces.

I won’t laugh at you. Your idea could be seen as being kind and caring for trans.

Since 2019 there has been a ‘trans’ wing in at least one prison, where TIM are kept separate from other men and have no access to females.

Sadly, although that might be ideal from a female point of view, it is unlikely to succeed with TW as it would mean them admitting that they are trans and have no right in female safe spaces, sports, etc.

RosieandherMaw

Don’t laugh at me but perhaps we need 4 genders - while still only 2 biological sexes.
Male, female, trans men and trans women.
So 4 sets of changing rooms, loos, showers, gym facilities etc but retaining the legal right to single sex spaces.

Actually you'd need a great many more than 4, aren't we told there are hundreds of genders? To start with you forgot non-binary.
Seriously though, your idea wouldn't work because for many, primarily transwomen, the affirmation of using the biological sex facility is vital. I think it was in Germany they organised a swimming race specifically for transgender participants, and it didn't get a single entry.

Mollygo

RosieandherMaw

Don’t laugh at me but perhaps we need 4 genders - while still only 2 biological sexes.
Male, female, trans men and trans women.
So 4 sets of changing rooms, loos, showers, gym facilities etc but retaining the legal right to single sex spaces.

I won’t laugh at you. Your idea could be seen as being kind and caring for trans.

Since 2019 there has been a ‘trans’ wing in at least one prison, where TIM are kept separate from other men and have no access to females.

Sadly, although that might be ideal from a female point of view, it is unlikely to succeed with TW as it would mean them admitting that they are trans and have no right in female safe spaces, sports, etc.

Molly is right. This is the root of a lot of the problems. As I understand it, some of the more. . . vocal transwomen have autogynephilia, and get sexual pleasure out of being assumed to be female. This is why they get so violently angry when they are rejected by lesbians, or asked to leave female facilities - it bursts the bubble that is their illusion that people believe them to be women. In their heads, if a woman is attracted to other women, it follows that she should be attracted to them, and when she turns them down, they can't handle it. A straight man 'identifying' as a lesbian makes no sense unless seen through this perspective, but understanding it explains a lot.

Heterosexual men fancy women. Lesbians are women, so are fair game. The men want to be perceived as women too, however, so the fact that most lesbians won't be attracted to them is deeply distressing to their delusion, and their testosterone kicks in, leading, in many cases, to violence. Similarly, the idea of being accepted as female means that however safe they would be in male (or so-called 'gender neutral' loos, they want to use the Ladies, as they believe that they are indistinguishable from women, as Molly says.

(In)famous examples of this are the time India Willoughby insisted on using the Ladies when there was a unisex loo, and when Eddie Izzard did likewise, even allowing someone to go in there and warn women who were already there, so the women could leave to make room for him, as he was in 'girl mode', or however he describes it.

JenniferEccles

Well I for one feel sad for the poor nurse who has been suspended after referring to a male ‘transgender’ patient as he.

This individual is a convicted paedophile, handcuffed to a prison guard who lunged at her, screaming racist abuse, yet because he wished to identify as a woman the nurse was deemed to be in the wrong.

Utter madness.

That is awful. What a stupid country we live in.

Unbelievable. This country has gone crazy. Hopefully this ruling will put some common sense back into it.

I hope Dr 'Beth' Watson is prevailed upon to resign for his vicious harassment and persecution of the nurse Sandra Peggie. I wonder how he is registered as a doctor because I do not imagine 'Beth' to be his first name, and don't doctors practise under the name they have when they gain their qualifications?
He had no gender recognition certificate and therefore no official right whatsoever to enter female changing spaces, therefore his case should never have been allowed.

I agree Easybee.
Thank goodness common sense prevailed.The reason it has taken so long is that a few with their own warped vision, such as Watson, do not care for anyone other than them selves.
Watson, should be sacked and I hope not employed again.

eazybee

I hope Dr 'Beth' Watson is prevailed upon to resign for his vicious harassment and persecution of the nurse Sandra Peggie. I wonder how he is registered as a doctor because I do not imagine 'Beth' to be his first name, and don't doctors practise under the name they have when they gain their qualifications?
He had no gender recognition certificate and therefore no official right whatsoever to enter female changing spaces, therefore his case should never have been allowed.

As I understand it Beth Upton has been reregistered as Beth Upton on the medical register, the previous registration under his male name is still there.
As the authorities at the hospital colluded with Upton in the treatment of Sandie Peggie I don't imagine they'll be quick to admit any wrong doing. It is the health board that Sandie has taken to the employment tribunal, which case resumes in July. I can't imagine they were thrilled with yesterday's clarification of the meaning of sex in the EA.

Easybee, Rosie51
It will be interesting to see how the health board in this case will deal with it in the light of yesterday’s ruling.

Dr Beth Upton has obtained the sort of notoriety which won’t enhance his career, whatever is decided.
I wonder how many similar cases will appear, now the supreme council says that biological sex determines whether or not you are a woman.

Of course men on a mixed ward will feel fine. Surely that's obvious!!

Rosie51

And that Allira is why only high dependency wards should be mixed. The intensive nursing and equipment required is being used on people who aren't ambulant and therefore unlikely to be intimidating to anyone else. Any ward where the patients are ambulant should be single sex.

Yes!

Sparklefizz

^Of course^ men on a mixed ward will feel fine. Surely that's obvious!!

Not sure if that’s always true, but I agree that only high dependency wards should be mixed.

Mollygo

Sparklefizz

Of course men on a mixed ward will feel fine. Surely that's obvious!!

Not sure if that’s always true, but I agree that only high dependency wards should be mixed.

I wish that were possible in practice, because I think the huge majority of both men and women probably feel more comfortable in singe sex wards. It depends on both bed numbers and the layout of wards - the big old wards tend to have separate bays for men and women but what happens when there is no option.
There was some reference above to Mental Health wards which have been mixed for a long time. People do all have separate rooms en suite of course but the reality of provision means no choice, ie locally there is only one ward for adult patients and one ward for older adult patients.

No I don't think it's true either, I remember my mother telling me in the final throes of my father's life when he was in a mixed hospital ward, he felt the last vestiges of any dignity had been stripped away. I perceive "some" men may care less in a mixed ward situation where I imagine a majority of women would care a lot. I think it's very dependent on a range of factors whether being so ill, not really conscious, but then again one's nearest and dearest would certainly want their loved one to be safe if that were the case. Dementia can change people's personalities a lot and that can result in bizarre and sometimes sexualised behaviours that could certainly prove to be very alarming and threatening in a mixed hospital ward, as could certain MH problems.

I think men are entitled to privacy and dignity too.

There was some reference above to Mental Health wards which have been mixed for a long time.
Not true where we live, either before the occasion I mentioned or afterwards, and the ONLY male on the ward said he was a woman!

That's interesting, Mollygo, it must be local decisions. I was describing local NHS provision, ie there is now only one ward.

(There are very long term high dependency permanent living facilities which are single sex)

It can be different in the private sector. (which sometimes NHS will buy into).

I read into it some more and found that our local trust was having discussions about single sex wards but it was stymied by cut backs. Other bigger trusts or trusts where provision is very geographically spread out do have single sex provision.