Trans women and single-sex spaces

Smileless2012

I and many others have said that the lives of ordinary quiet trans people have been impacted Luminance but they've been impacted by those who believe their 'rights' supersede those of biological women and those who've supported them.

Exactly. This new ruling is not going to make a difference, as far as I can see.

Luminance

It's like conversing with politicians. This is not political. It is not political to ask you if you care about trans people keeping their protections and being able to feel safe.

Oh definitely! You haven't answered any questions put to you, just deflection, ignore, deviate..... are you aiming to go into politics?
I'd like all people to feel safe. For women that means not having to share some spaces with men. I care that lesbians aren't told that not wanting sex with a 'lesbian with a penis' is transphobic and bigoted. Do you?

I think that does rather answer my question doesn't it. This is not feminism.

Luminance

I think that does rather answer my question doesn't it. This is not feminism.

How do you define feminism, if not a system of thinking that foregrounds the safety of and seeks equality for the female sex.

I have a sense of deja vu.

Luminance

I think it is rather short sighted to state that ordinary quiet trans people have not been impacted

I’ve always said that the actions of some TIM and their fans would harm not just females but also any trans who are not violent, or cheating.

This ruling endorses that.

The short sighted ones are those TIM who have caused the need for this action and those who blindly, or intentionally support them.

Not sure if it has been discussed, but how does this affect trans men? I assume same law applies in that they are women, and therefore must use women only spaces?

Forgive me if I’m asking you to repeat yourselves, but it is just a thought that occurred to me as I skimmed the judgement.

I think it will apply to transmen, as the definition of a woman applies to those born female, which includes them.

It's interesting that the definition of what is a man is not in dispute, though, isn't it?

I have this déjà vu feeling too.
Memories of inter feminists or some other way of excusing the support for male rights over female rights.

Could PN be a reincarnation?

I couldn't possibly say, Molly, but this is all very familiar.

Doodledog

I think it will apply to transmen, as the definition of a woman applies to those born female, which includes them.

It's interesting that the definition of what is a man is not in dispute, though, isn't it?

Well presumably men don’t feel as strongly as women about the issue?

When DH was in hospital before Christmas, he was in a mixed ward for a time, and it simply made no impact on me nor him (he was pretty ill) until he ended in another - less acute ward which was all male. Getting better seemed more important than who was what sex - that would have seemed pretty small minded in the scheme of things at the time. .

I think that does rather answer my question doesn't it. This is not feminism

Which bit is not feminism? I am unclear what you are referring to specifically Luminance.

I did skim read the whole of the proceedings too and am happy that the attempt to conflate gender and sex can't continue.

I do suspect however that the GRA act might need clarification in some practical terms.

The are bits of the ruling that are relevant to GRA

""As I shall explain later in this hand down speech, the Equality Act 2010 gives transgender people protection, not only against discrimination through the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, but also against direct discrimination, indirect discrimination and harassment in substance in their acquired gender," Lord Hodge says"

Later it explains

" Although many provisions of the GRA 2004 have been overtaken by other legislative developments, we consider that the Act continues to have relevance and importance in providing for legal recognition of the rights of transgender people.

This recognition of their changed status has practical effects for individual rights and freedoms (including, for example, in the context of marriage, pensions, retirement and social security) but also in recognising their personal autonomy and dignity and avoiding unacceptable discordance in their sense of identity as a transgender person living in an acquired gender.

We also agree with the Scottish Ministers that the GRA 2004 is concerned with relationships between private parties as well as between the transgender person and the state".

It was a rather simple question, do we care about trans people, their safety and keeping their protections? A question in return is not an answer and neither is a declaration about whatever a "TRA" is. Do we believe trans people deserve protections as reinforced by the court or not? No point asking me if I would include equality for every marginalised group as my responsibility as a feminist because the answer is rather apparent.

Already asked and answered Luminance.

You don't have to be a feminist to regard equality for every marginalised group as your responsibility; just a decent human being.

Trans people are already cared for in existing legislation.

Grandmabatty

Trans people are already cared for in existing legislation.

It would be interesting to know what Luminance means by caring/not caring for trans.
What does he or she mean by that?

Whitewavemark2

When DH was in hospital before Christmas, he was in a mixed ward for a time, and it simply made no impact on me nor him (he was pretty ill) until he ended in another - less acute ward which was all male. Getting better seemed more important than who was what sex - that would have seemed pretty small minded in the scheme of things at the time.

When one DD was on a mental health ward where she and other patients were already suffering from trauma in some cases involving males, the fact that the nurses were unable/unwilling to remove the TIM blatantly displaying what he was, as he said he was a woman, because they were
a) afraid of him and
b) afraid of the the consequences and the accusations of transphobia, if they tried, impacted heavily on female patients’ chances of getting better.

Would you say that was small minded too?

The problems caused by certain TIM and their ardent supporters are what has caused the need for the current decision.

Do you think the TIM/TW who caused this care about other trans, any more than they care about females?

Mollygo

Whitewavemark2

When DH was in hospital before Christmas, he was in a mixed ward for a time, and it simply made no impact on me nor him (he was pretty ill) until he ended in another - less acute ward which was all male. Getting better seemed more important than who was what sex - that would have seemed pretty small minded in the scheme of things at the time.

When one DD was on a mental health ward where she and other patients were already suffering from trauma in some cases involving males, the fact that the nurses were unable/unwilling to remove the TIM blatantly displaying what he was, as he said he was a woman, because they were
a) afraid of him and
b) afraid of the the consequences and the accusations of transphobia, if they tried, impacted heavily on female patients’ chances of getting better.

Would you say that was small minded too?

The problems caused by certain TIM and their ardent supporters are what has caused the need for the current decision.

Do you think the TIM/TW who caused this care about other trans, any more than they care about females?

A few years ago I was admitted to an emergency ward which was mixed. There were about eight of us in the room, six women and two men.

One younger man was either discharged or moved on but the older man was there for all of my stay. Whether he realised he was intimidating in some of his actions or whether he had dementia, I don't know. The one overworked staff nurse used to deal with him as best she could and persuade him back to bed, but he certainly made some of the women feel uncomfortable.

I'm glad that your husband recovered Whitewavemark. There may well have been an impact on you both if he were a woman on a mixed ward.

Of course getting better is important, but a woman feeling uncomfortable sharing a ward with men could have her recovery negatively affected.

I felt VERY uncomfortable when put on a mixed ward with one bloke wandering around the ward endlessly!!

And that Allira is why only high dependency wards should be mixed. The intensive nursing and equipment required is being used on people who aren't ambulant and therefore unlikely to be intimidating to anyone else. Any ward where the patients are ambulant should be single sex.

Whitewavemark2

Doodledog

I think it will apply to transmen, as the definition of a woman applies to those born female, which includes them.

It's interesting that the definition of what is a man is not in dispute, though, isn't it?

Well presumably men don’t feel as strongly as women about the issue?

When DH was in hospital before Christmas, he was in a mixed ward for a time, and it simply made no impact on me nor him (he was pretty ill) until he ended in another - less acute ward which was all male. Getting better seemed more important than who was what sex - that would have seemed pretty small minded in the scheme of things at the time. .

The point, though, is that in general, women are far more at risk from men than the other way around. A man in a female ward is more dangerous than a woman in a male ward (or cell, or public loo, or changing room). That is the reason transmen don't come into the conversation as often as transwomen.

I think unless one was very ill and completely out of it, mixed wards would be a horrible experience. One of my sons was admitted to hospital for a couple of days following an asthma attack and next to him was a woman maybe in her 60s. I think I said to him when we visited at the time "not a very nice experience for her find a young man mid 20s in the bed next to hers" to which he replied "hey mum that's not nice, what's wrong with me?," to which I replied "nothing, but she doesn't know that, I wouldn't want to be in a ward like this in her position, for all she know you could present a threat" him "yeah s'pose"

Mollygo, so sorry (and cross) to read of your daughter’s experience.

You’re right of course, the current conflicts and problems at root caused by activists

Actually, men when they are ill or in distress, or even when not in command of themselves, do often play around with their private parts. It’s a comfort thing. A reversion to childhood.

It’s not very nice lying next door to one on a ward even if it’s not directed at you personally. Pyjamas can sometimes be very revealing.

If you have the curtain pulled across you can still hear the grunts and sighs.

I hope mixed wards will now become a thing of the past.