Trans women and single-sex spaces

I will continue to treat all women with respect as I have always done. I even respect their opinions. What I do not condone nor respect only attaches itself to how those opinions are expressed. I respect honesty and sincerity. The rest is beneath contempt. To my mind people on both sides of this debate, whether trans or not, if not doing so with honesty and integrity, they are the same.

Apart from TRA's, who would you say isn't expressing their opinions with respect and sincerity Luminance?

Smileless2012

Thank you for the link Wyllow. What's lacking in the content is the acknowledgement of the huge part the TRA's have had to play.

That's the reason why things have changed and the vast majority of trans women who do simply want to get on with their lives, now feel at risk.

The rise in transphobia is IMO down to the appalling behaviour of a very small minority, and supports what we on GN have been saying for years.

What I think made the difference was not the desire to be recognised as women gender only wise but the attempt to claim it had biological validity which led to as you say really extreme situations (as well as what to me as someone not versed in the detail verging on the ludicrous).

But I was involved enough in debates to witness the fierce debates over whether third options were acceptable which split both transwomen and feminists and was caught up with the "biology" debates.

And found myself often piggy in the middle as I thought third options a way forward and as the debates raged I thought about "the quiet ones" which has led me to ask the questions I did above, and how to meet their needs as well of course as those of us being born a women. Such a small minority of the population too.

I think I feel that social issues of many kinds are born out of fierce debates: which we are in the middle of, and take time to resolve.

I agree that claims of biological validity has resulted in extreme situations Wyllow. We've seen here on GN in the past how debate has attempted to split feminists, with intersectional feminists trying to claim the higher moral ground.

I think everyone feels they are 'in the middle' though. I haven't seen evidence of transphobia on here - in fact there is barely a post that doesn't reiterate that the poster is not anti-trans, just pro safe spaces for women. The extremism comes from those who accuse us of hatred, Nazism and so on.

On a spectrum which has at one end total acceptance of transwomen going anywhere they wish and a belief that if someone says they are a woman this is, in fact, the case, and at the other a fear of transpeople and a refusal to engage with them, I think that most posters on here are very much 'in the middle'.

I think the comments on current threads I have visited that state that the actions of a few make "all" trans people look bad in some way or that all trans people should be standing up to condemn the actions of others are an issue. That type of thinking is rather what led us to the equality act in the first place. I also think it is a problem that anyone who has a positive thoughts about trans people or shows they want to ensure they have safe spaces being branded a "TRA" and hounded with things they haven't said nor thought are also an issue. I think those are enough to make "the middle" feel deeply uncomfortable on varying levels and it isn't productive. I have not seen any evidence of any "TRA" as being part of these discussions only reactions to what has been said.

Ilovecheese

In answer to the question "where can I go for refuge from domestic violence"
The domestic violence charity Refuge is going to continue with its policy of including trans women.
Nothing has changed there.

Refuge also supports men who are victims of abuse and, l assume, trans men.

Doodledog

I think everyone feels they are 'in the middle' though. I haven't seen evidence of transphobia on here - in fact there is barely a post that doesn't reiterate that the poster is not anti-trans, just pro safe spaces for women. The extremism comes from those who accuse us of hatred, Nazism and so on.

On a spectrum which has at one end total acceptance of transwomen going anywhere they wish and a belief that if someone says they are a woman this is, in fact, the case, and at the other a fear of transpeople and a refusal to engage with them, I think that most posters on here are very much 'in the middle'.

You are right we don't see the spectrum here. I have in mind people on another board who hate and fear any transpeople or/and deny they exist, or say it's an illness (as some did/do for gay people).

And transpeople do experience attacks on that basis.

Yes of course its made worse by aggressive terfs

but its the reason why I think its a "society" issue too - when the Equality Guidelines come out - that meeting the needs of transpeople in a reasonable manner in everyday life should be addressed by society as a whole, now we have this ruling, difficult tho it is.

Resources are going to be an issue, aren't they?

OldFrill

Ilovecheese

In answer to the question "where can I go for refuge from domestic violence"
The domestic violence charity Refuge is going to continue with its policy of including trans women.
Nothing has changed there.

Refuge also supports men who are victims of abuse and, l assume, trans men.

I look up Refuge and yes they do support abused transmen.

I think we also have to address the damage done by this movement to society in general. That people willingly tried to force people to believe what everyone knew wasn't true. It was terrible behaviour in terms of politicians, organisations, etc, it has absolutely weakened faith in institutions.

I posted this on the other thread but think it applies here as well.
Harriet Harman who helped bring the Equality Act into being has confirmed that yes she always intended that the category sex meant biological sex. Shame she didn't think to confirm this the first time Stonewall said it wasn't eh? Might have stopped this whole shambles before it gained momentum.

Of course transpeople exist and good luck to them living their best lives but I won't be compelled to believe or say the farce that males can change sex to become females nor the other way round. I want things designated as female or women's things to be for females only. That includes prisons, hospital wards, changing rooms, sports, clubs, awards and quotas.
Luminance I really don't think anyone wants transpeople not to have safe spaces, it's just that many of us don't agree that should be achieved by using women's safe spaces. Third spaces are the answer but for many transpeople, transwomen in particular, this is not acceptable, they want full access to female spaces.

What concerns me, is not that this ruling has happened, such boundaries were needed. It is what happens next. Because I would have to be rather short sighted not to see that there are those who will use this to cause harm. Having the right to say something doesn't mean it is always appropriate to do so. Trans people are people's friends, their family, their children and their grandchildren. Where we use our beliefs to protect is entirely different from using them to cause harm. Finding that balance will be up to the individual in all cases.

Yes, this may well be those who will use this to cause harm - but that applies to both sides.

I think if people think describing biological reality is harmful then they are the harmful one. As I mentioned before the damage done to society by this belief system is extensive.

^ Having the right to say something doesn't mean it is always appropriate to do so.^

Good point.

And women and quiet trans have suffered from an increasing number of excellent examples of people ignoring the truth of that point over the last few years.

It will be interesting to see whether those who caused the trouble will agree with you and cease saying or doing those inappropriate things which they are no longer entitled to do.

So far, I have seen as much abuse of women, famous or not since the day as there was before, with some new voices adding to the you can’t stop me/make me swell.

Luminance

I think the comments on current threads I have visited that state that the actions of a few make "all" trans people look bad in some way or that all trans people should be standing up to condemn the actions of others are an issue. That type of thinking is rather what led us to the equality act in the first place. I also think it is a problem that anyone who has a positive thoughts about trans people or shows they want to ensure they have safe spaces being branded a "TRA" and hounded with things they haven't said nor thought are also an issue. I think those are enough to make "the middle" feel deeply uncomfortable on varying levels and it isn't productive. I have not seen any evidence of any "TRA" as being part of these discussions only reactions to what has been said.

Nobody said that TRAs are on these threads. What we are saying is that it is their actions which have moved a lot of people from being accommodating to transpeople to being wary.

For someone who has so much to say about being misquoted, you do it a lot.

Here's a simple question - if having a male-bodied person in a female space makes the women in there feel unsafe, is that more or less important than safe spaces for transwoman? Please don't say that they are equally important, as it is not possible for the man both to be there (and thus feel safe) and not be there (so the women can feel safe). Schrodinger's transwoman, if you like. I would be interested to know who you would support in this situation?

That’s a good question Doodledog.

The mass urination protest by a very vocal group of trans activists will really help women support them. Not.

I think I wrote the wrong word once Doodledog that doesn't equate to "a lot". Everything else that rather concerns me is here in black and white. Is it a problem that I have those concerns or is it a problem that you don't agree I should have them?

Grandmabatty

The mass urination protest by a very vocal group of trans activists will really help women support them. Not.

Read all about it here.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5317915-mass-piss-up

Is this an example of mutual consideration?

I saw the tweet that India Willoughby posted. Revolting.
This comment on the thread you link to says it succinctly
Nothing says “male to the core” like them pissing all over the place like a spaniel marking its territory.

I’m not Doodledog, but everyone is entitled to their own concerns, so why would it be a problem for you or anyone else to have them?
Weird question.

I’ve just glanced at the mumsnet responses to this, they’re on it in such a good way. As one poster says, nothing says male entitled behaviiur like a mass piss in - like spaniels marking their territory.
And on Easter Sunday

Is it real? I just thought it was more nonsense.

Yes Galaxy, it seems to be real. How to win friends and influence people