Trans women and single-sex spaces

I don’t see the logic.

Of course there are more cases of violence from heterosexual men. There are more of them. And why should violence from another male group excuse violence from transwomen.

Nor do I accept the “minority” argument. A violent minority can carry out many acts of violence given the means to do so.

Now that it has been made plain that there are transwomen who wish to harm and kill women, I cannot understand how still believe that there is no need for women to have safe spaces.

The evidence is before you.

Most transwomen are heterosexual men! That is the very reason why we don’t want them in our spaces, and why so many of them claim to be Lesbians.

It’s like plaiting fog sometimes.

Yet here we are discussing a tiny few cases where transgender women have created a criminal act .

Of course we are because this is the focus of this thread, the injustices carried out under the guise of equal human rights for women and transwomen. The demonstrations yesterday were a clear indication of the dislike/contempt/hatred felt by aggressive members of the transgender movement towards women, coupled with their strange desire to emulate them and share their spaces.

It appears the NHS and certain MPs, eg. Angela Eagle and Chris Bryant are intending to circumvent the Law, and Lord Sumption is attacking its veracity: 'it doesn't mean what people think it means.' Meanwhile, absolute silence from Keir Starmer.

Like plaiting fog. Brilliant!

It is heterosexual males that create the most danger for women

No it's not, it's biological men who create the most danger for women.

96% of the prison population are male for which, 80.4% are in prison for violent crimes. Of that 96%, 0.34% are transgender, equating to 295 in prison.

The most common crime for which transgender individuals are jailed is sexual offenses. Data from the Ministry of Justice in England and Wales indicates that a significant portion of transgender prisoners have been convicted of crimes of a sexual nature. Specifically, one report found that 60 out of 125 transgender prisoners counted in 2017 were serving time for sexual offenses, with 27 being convicted of rape.

Heterosexual refers to their sexual orientation, not their wish to label themselves as women, so in respect to danger to women, transwomen with fully functioning male bodies who are oriented to desire female sexual partners do not differ from the men they used to be before they declared that they were transitioning.

Syracute says "It is heterosexual males that create the most danger for women." - Yes, and that is why transgender but heterosexual males have no right to be in places where women are undressed in a hospital ward, under stress because of previous abuse by men, or vulnerable and imprisoned where they cannot get away from men. Also there is the psychological effect of their presence as well as the physical.

Do any advocates of their presence have any suggestions for how to screen ANYONE, not just transgender people, to ascertain whether they could become a threat to women, without being invasive or humiliating to anyone? That would be extremely useful, and would prevent a lot of rapes, injuries, and abusives.

As a bonus it would also save a great deal of time and money for the agencies which have to deal with the after-effects - the medical and counselling sessions for the victims, and the investigations, arrests, trials and imprisonments for the perpetrators.

Its not hard to find reports that state the situation overall in a measured manner, for example

news.sky.com/story/thousands-of-trans-rights-activists-gather-in-london-after-supreme-court-ruling-on-definition-of-a-woman-13351664

I absolutely deplore the defacement of statues. How many trans people reading the papers must have felt about what was being done apparently "in their name"

Whatever we think of the POV, most of the demonstrations were peaceful.

I couldn't find a record of any Labour MP's at the demonstration, btw, who were they?

In fact there was a major speech yesterday on "how the government has let us down". But Labour activists were also present in support of the ruling on Wednesday.

It's hard to look forward and see how the Equalities Commission can deliver both the solid and correct definitions of who can call themselves women and also deliver what they said in terms of transpeople. Will legislation be needed? Whats happening to the GRC?

Syracute
^It is not umpteen . It is a small few .It is heterosexual males that create the most danger for women . The numbers are huge .
Yet here we are discussing a tiny few cases where transgender women have created a criminal act^

You appear to be saying that it doesn’t matter if it’s only a tiny few biological males calling themselves TW who cause all the harm to females.
It’s true that there are more crimes against females committed by biological, heterosexual males. Nobody would disagree with that. But now in addition to that they are faced with attacks and violent behaviour from biological males lying that they are women, and you seem to be excusing that.

The performance yesterday demonstrates so clearly both the TRA hatred for women and the complete disregard for any trans who may be affected by their stupidity.

Are you still excusing them on the grounds that they are a minority?

I also wonder about the raison d'etre of "oh but the attacks against women by transwomen are only minimal" what constitutes minimal? More to the point, I perceive they didn't happen at all before the aggressive bodied person entered the woman only domain So is that OK for women to live with "it's only a few then that will present a threat?" When as some have asserted, and I don't doubt it transwomen were in the loos before and went unnoticed, clearly they were never the problem. The argument that women are more at risk from natal men, well of course they are men constitute half of the adult population. Not sure statistically the numbers of transwomen, as a percentage of the overall population pretty minute I imagine, although sometimes one could be forgiven for over estimating their number because the element amongst them that make a lot of noise. They are over represented in the prison population, which gives credence to the disquiet women feel about such people entering spaces where women feel at their most vulnerable.

Elegran

Heterosexual refers to their sexual orientation, not their wish to label themselves as women, so in respect to danger to women, transwomen with fully functioning male bodies who are oriented to desire female sexual partners do not differ from the men they used to be before they declared that they were transitioning.

Elegran
I hadn’t read your post before I sent my last post, but how accurately you put it.
And how particularly that applies to those TW Claiming trans women could be lesbian, totally ignoring the fact that lesbians are sexually orientated towards females.

There were signs calling for the death of women at that march Wyllow.

Galaxy

There were signs calling for the death of women at that march Wyllow.

There were indeed - 'burn the witches' and signs calling for 'TERFS' to be hanged. Will those accusing some of us of showing 'hate' now condemn those actions and aggressions too?

Galaxy

There were signs calling for the death of women at that march Wyllow.

Utterly, completely unacceptable. Should be arrested.

I hope the presence of the green party and unison are noted by women. I have no idea why political parties get involved with this issue, it is always the kiss of death so to speak.

Galaxy

I hope the presence of the green party and unison are noted by women. I have no idea why political parties get involved with this issue, it is always the kiss of death so to speak.

Galaxy, we are due an election and I was thinking that’d be no need to ask this time whether the candidate or their party knows what a woman is, or whether they believe you can change sex.
Looks like I was wrong, so I will not only ask that , but I will ask what they think should be done about yesterday’s actions.

What is there to say about yesterday? People have a right to demonstrate peacefully. (and only peacefully) whether we agree or disagree.

I think if the green party are part of a protest where there are calls for violence against women it is worth publicising. They are indeed entitled to protest and we are entitled to comment about it.

They don't have a right to urge "Death to terfs" That is incitement to violence and is a crime.

If anyone waved a banner that said "Death to all trans" they would be on a charge of hate behaviour.

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the transitioning gander.

We’re not talking about peaceful demonstrations are we?

We’re talking about about transwomen, who want unlimited access to vulnerable women, holding up placards calling for women to killed.

I think there’s quite a lot to be sad about yesterday. Even though some posters want to pretend the violence didn’t happen.

The proof that a lot of transwomen want to kill women is there for everybody to see. It wasn’t just a handful.

And that is why no transwomen can be allowed in women’s safe places. Because you can’t tell who is a would be murderer just by looking.

If anyone waved a banner that said "Death to all trans" they would be on a charge of hate behaviour.

Bullseye Elegran absolutely this. Can you imagine the outrage, the screeching wails of "TRANSPHOBE!" and the number of police officers just waiting to arrest you for hate crimes. The hypocrisy and double standards by TRAs and their supporters is truly staggering and sickening.

Strange, isn't it, that the nurse who was subjected to racial hatred was the one who lost her job.

so has racial prejudice been down graded?

ViceVersa

Galaxy

There were signs calling for the death of women at that march Wyllow.

There were indeed - 'burn the witches' and signs calling for 'TERFS' to be hanged. Will those accusing some of us of showing 'hate' now condemn those actions and aggressions too?

In my view, misogyny should be classified as a hate crime. I have never understood why it isn't. Maybe it is so widespread that it would be hard to effectively police.

There were thousands on the demonstration yesterday. I have scoured the news outlets for different reports and although there are definitely reports of the vandalism I cannot find evidence of these "widespread death threats" alluded to above as taking place on the march. I'm not for a moment denying that there were some, and utterly condemn them, but feel it unfair to those turning up to tar all with the same brush.

Should misogyny be a hate crime? that's a good - and complex question.

It is still very widespread in general in our society still and would be very difficult to police. Figures for domestic violence very high. and now we have the Andrew Tates of this world spreading it amongst out youngsters.

there have been moves to make it a hate crime
www.nottinghamwomenscentre.com/misogyny-hate-crime/#:~:text=In%20its%20simplest%20form%2C%20misogyny,women%20because%20they%20are%20women.

that floundered.

"death to...." any group should be classified as such, I believe, and I dont think the courts post the Supreme Court ruling would be "letting people off the hook".

It was mentioned in one of the papers that nearly all the demonstrators were young and all the pictures available definitely bear that out. I think it's the generation that has expected the guidance provided by the GRC that they could legally call themselves women as opposed to transwomen.

On the whole the older generation of transwomen (yes, those quiet ones alluded to in this thread) I suspect are keeping their heads down (probably with younger people as well) to see what happens in practice but are among the many worried about their lives.

This just makes me angry with those extreme men calling themselves trans as they are affecting so badly those who want to live in peace and have facilities that meet their needs considered not the misogyny of those extremists claiming to represent them.

I also have a good friend who has transitioned from male to female, I never think of her as anything other than she.
A more caring, loving person you’d be hard pushed to find - she’s a member of WI, volunteers at foodbank, is totally integrated into “mainstream” community, it’s the likes of her I feel for, and echo your thoughts Cabbie21.
I wonder how many people on this forum have had direct contact with a trans person ….