Trans women and single-sex spaces

Rosie51

Luminance

Listen up, I understand this topic is important but the insinuations are getting tiresome. I do not really know anyone well on gransnet yet and I am not part of any group here to cause any issues. You have my word. I am simply looking for a middle ground. Perhaps we can all agree that death threats are not ok against any person. I do know that trans people have been threatened, assaulted physically and sexually and even killed. I might not be up on the jargon but I do feel I have something to add in this discussion and would hope I am welcome to do so.

Are you aware that more than 3 women a week are murdered in England and Wales? The figures over the last 14 years have ranged from a low of 157 in one year to the high of 222 in 2018/2019.

From factcheck channel4 www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

According to these figures, there was one trans person murdered in the UK in that time, and a total of nine trans people were murdered in the UK between 2008 and 2017. That’s an average rate of one victim per year.

That's one a year too many but hardly an epidemic.

The insinuations are because you keep posting from a viewpoint of expertise in the area of transgenderism yet claim ignorance of so much and especially the impact on the lives of women by transwomen and the activists.

You are as entitled and welcome to post as anybody else on these forums but don't be surprised if you get challenged on your content.

... and if you average that out by how many transpeople there are to how many women, (on a quick go at my calculator) you are something like 7 times more likely to be murdered as a transwoman.
I could also point out that the number of women murdered by a transwoman in the UK, is zero.
So when the rate of murder of women by men, particularly in domestic violence situations is so high, and the rate of murder by transpeople is nil, why is it that the big campaign is against all transpeople?

Transwomen are men they are in the same group.

And when recovering from domestic violence situations women sometimes need space away from men. That's why it is important to have single sex domestic violence services which we can now provide without worry that men can access them.

Doodledog

I fully understand why you won't want to say anything that might be 'outing', but would suggest that 'doctors believe' is meaningless, and that anyone working in counselling or psychology would realise that. Without revealing your own involvement, maybe you could let us know the specialism of the doctors with whom you have these conversations?

If you are supporting patients and their families, I assume that you have qualifications in counselling and/or psychology, and my understanding (a close family member is a psychologist) is that there is a lot of disagreement and feelings that 'the jury is still out' on the subject of gender dysphoria, as the numbers are so small that it is difficult to find a representative sample that will exclude other causal factors for people claiming to be 'in the wrong body'. Biological reasons are difficult to put forward as the phenomenon is new, which suggests that societal factors are likely to be in play.

I wonder why your experience is so different?

All I can tell you Doodledog is that yes counselling is part of my role, as is advocating for my patients and their rights. Treating my patients with compassion you must understand is paramount. It's a difficult job where I cannot let my opinions in any way impact individual patients even where there is much I don't understand so seek support and clarity. So clearly you can see why this subject might be important to me. Any studies done on the subject I don't have any more access to than you but Doctors generally do and I believe some are available online.

It's not just women who need a respite from men in refuges.
Some children are really terrified of men as a result of what they have witnessed at home. Their feelings should be considered.

Galaxy

Transwomen are men they are in the same group.

And it seems we’re back to excusing one type of appalling violence against women by TIM because it’s not as bad as another!

Next we’ll hear that the death threats by TRA against women weren’t seriously meant!

None of that makes harm to trans right. in Women are having to fight to protect women against the actions of TW/TRA, made so visible.
Surely Women can’t be held responsible for undoing the damage done to trans by the actions of TRA/TW.

What about other violent crimes committed by transwomen, Glasweegran? Isla Bryson, Andrew Miller - to name but two off the top of my head? No-one has ever claimed it is 'all' transpeople, just as we recognise that it's not 'all men'.
However, it is also accepted that the statistics aren't always accurate, as conviction rates aren't always recorded on gender - and if they are, the 'trans' category tends to be classed as those who have undergone some form of surgery as opposed to those who simply self-identify as the opposite sex.

This ◀️ is what we are up against.
Aggressive TRactivists bullying behaviour. Despicable.

Why would that man be hiding behind the sign like that? If you are going to do something so heinous, at least have the courage to show your face.

Probably because he's a bully Luminance and all bullies are cowards aren't they.

I think it's fair to say that this subject is important to everyone who takes part in these discussions. Some of us have been doing so for years for a variety of reasons but the one we all have in common is it being important to us.

They're a disgrace FGT's.

I am consistent Rosie.

Somewhat confused that the transman you follow uses the men’s toilet space?

Surely, as a woman, she should use women’s spaces🤔

Interesting excerpt from today's Spiked: After being legally crucified by the Supreme Court last Wednesday, the trans faithful marched from Parliament Square in London yesterday in a display of devotion and defiance. It was a tantrum disguised as a protest over the court’s heresy – that the word ‘woman’ refers to a biological category, not a personal sense of gender.

Chanting ‘Fuck JK Rowling’ and ‘Fuck Wes Streeting’, the mob wailed over the apparent injustice of women having legally defined boundaries. Banners held included ‘The only good TERF is a dead one’; as *legal commentator Dennis Kavanagh pointed out, there are currently people in prison for saying less.*

He was followed by Sarah Jane (né Alan) Baker, a violent ex-con turned trans activist who in 2023 called for TERFs to be punched in the face and was reported to have removed his own balls in prison while doing a stretch for kidnap, torture and attempted murder.

Yeah; a peaceful demonstration by peaceable people who just want to live in peace. Not.

Honestly Carlotta some of these men (who want to identify as women) are seriously unhinged. Mental health issues for sure. This anger is NOT normal. These men are frustrated, angry and downright dangerous.

Luminance

Why would that man be hiding behind the sign like that? If you are going to do something so heinous, at least have the courage to show your face.

You really need to ask?

In 2024, Starmer said Criminals intent on causing violence and unrest on our streets will be stopped in their tracks thanks to a new National Violent Disorder Programme, the Prime Minister has announced today.

At a meeting of police chiefs in Downing Street this afternoon, he offered his clear backing to forces up and down the country - pledging that the government will work in direct partnership with them to stamp out the violent disorder seen in recent weeks.

Following the meeting, he has announced the immediate creation of the new programme, which will bring together the best policing capabilities from across the country to share intelligence on the activity of violent groups so the authorities can swiftly intervene to arrest them.

So...... can we look forward to seeing the current violent, aggressive and threatening demonstrators thrown into biologically appropriate prison cells?

We can hope.

Carlotta, thats a highly biased and cherry picking version of what happened on a very large predominantly peaceful demonstration by a particular publication with a very particular slant. Spiked uses very patronising and mocking language is the giveaway, using words like "tantrum" and "wailed" and similar.

A google on "Spiked Trans" leads to a whole list of anti trans articles by this publication. Pretty clearly anti trans ideology per se.

Now I am not denying that the examples quoted and the photographs shown by FGT never happened, they clearly did. But they were extremists and should not be taken as typical.

And yes, where acts or signage or threats (just like anti semitic memes at the Palestine marches) are illegal and hate speech or actions, criminal proceedings should follow no get out clause because its trans.

LizzieDrip

I am consistent Rosie.

Somewhat confused that the transman you follow uses the men’s toilet space?

Surely, as a woman, she should use women’s spaces🤔

Sorry, slip of the brain, Fionne Orlander is a transwoman. That's why I mentioned the pretty, feminine appearance.

I really think it would have been a whole lot easier and clearer if a transman had been a biological man who was transgender and a transwoman was a biological woman who was transgender.

And now Angela Eagle and Chris Bryant exchanging WhatsApp messages yesterday saying this ruling ‘is catastrophic’.

What?

Be very careful now Labour … or ..
Whoosh - another million votes for Reform.

Just to add LizzieDrip Fionne reports no problems using men's toilets. Once a guy asked if 'she' was in the wrong loo, and on being told "I'm a man" replied "And a very pretty one" which pleased him no end. I don't follow Fionne because he's transgender but for other shared interests.

Wyllow we have collated thousands of threats against women in this debate over the years. It is completely typical and what women have experienced again and again.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

And now Angela Eagle and Chris Bryant exchanging WhatsApp messages yesterday saying this ruling ‘is catastrophic’.

What?

Be very careful now Labour … or ..
Whoosh - another million votes for Reform.

And you would vote for a party that is particularly regressive on women's rights (not to mention it's "blame everything on refugees... just don't look at the billionaires" stance).... because some people think the ruling was a bad move?
You feel voting for the party that aligns itself with Trump is going to help women's rights?

predominantly peaceful demonstration

You think? Defacing 7 statues with graffiti and threatening slogan and causing criminal damage. Carrying placards with "KILL TERFS". Pissing up monuments, public buildings and statues. Carrying bags of urine to pour over public buildings. Shouting threats inciting violence towards "terfs". If you think that's peaceful, I'd hate to see what you'd consider violent and aggressive.

As for your distaste for Spiked; of course you think it's patronising and mocking; what else can you do but mock when men go out and pee up a wall to demonstrate what women they are!

There are also named death threats against JK Rowling. Just so we are clear on my position, I view this in exactly the same way as I view the threat from Andrew Tate, in fact they worry me more, because they have more power and influence.

Galaxy

Wyllow we have collated thousands of threats against women in this debate over the years. It is completely typical and what women have experienced again and again.

And I've read them, as you know. I was commenting on the particular demonstration but as above have made clear I don't disagree with you that some threats reach "hate speech" levels and possible criminal levels. And that I support women only spaces where appropriate and third spaces.

But I will call out reports like the one in spiked as trans people have the right to demonstrate and speak up without mockery, exaggeration, or spite as they dont represent transpeople as a whole.