Trans women and single-sex spaces

Listen up, I understand this topic is important but the insinuations are getting tiresome. I do not really know anyone well on gransnet yet and I am not part of any group here to cause any issues. You have my word. I am simply looking for a middle ground. Perhaps we can all agree that death threats are not ok against any person. I do know that trans people have been threatened, assaulted physically and sexually and even killed. I might not be up on the jargon but I do feel I have something to add in this discussion and would hope I am welcome to do so.

Rosie51
Re Luminance
I find your ignorance about what these well know acronyms stand for really quite unbelievable. Your unconcern at signs calling for violence against anybody is distasteful at best. I'm sure if the signs were calling for violence against TRAs you wouldn't have posted "well if you're not a TRA why is that a problem"

Strange indeed.

TERW as I have said on here before I have a relative engaged to a transman so am familiar with non violent transpeople. Your friend might be the next Mother Theresa but even then your friend would still be of the male sex, that hasn't changed. As we keep trying to point out all transwomen whether 'genuine' or not, safe or not, are men and have no business in female only spaces, all other areas of life knock yourself out, enjoy!

I have indeed posted to ask why this would need to impact trans people who are not TRA. I have been told several times now that TRA make trans people in general look bad!

I believe it works both ways, perhaps now my point shows it has relevance.

Luminance

I believe it works both ways, perhaps now my point shows it has relevance.

No.
Doesn't make sense.

Luminance

Listen up, I understand this topic is important but the insinuations are getting tiresome. I do not really know anyone well on gransnet yet and I am not part of any group here to cause any issues. You have my word. I am simply looking for a middle ground. Perhaps we can all agree that death threats are not ok against any person. I do know that trans people have been threatened, assaulted physically and sexually and even killed. I might not be up on the jargon but I do feel I have something to add in this discussion and would hope I am welcome to do so.

Are you aware that more than 3 women a week are murdered in England and Wales? The figures over the last 14 years have ranged from a low of 157 in one year to the high of 222 in 2018/2019.

From factcheck channel4 www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

According to these figures, there was one trans person murdered in the UK in that time, and a total of nine trans people were murdered in the UK between 2008 and 2017. That’s an average rate of one victim per year.

That's one a year too many but hardly an epidemic.

The insinuations are because you keep posting from a viewpoint of expertise in the area of transgenderism yet claim ignorance of so much and especially the impact on the lives of women by transwomen and the activists.

You are as entitled and welcome to post as anybody else on these forums but don't be surprised if you get challenged on your content.

Neither do a lot of the comments addressed to me so I suppose we must persevere.

Who are the 'we' that you keep talking about?

'We' might or might not agree, and I have no idea what 'we are going to persevere in doing.

Also, as you are, apparently new here, listen up - there is no 'group' on GN. We are individuals who agree on some things and disagree on others. Each and every poster is speaking for herself. One thing that a few of us do have in common is an uncanny sense of deja vu, however.

I'm do not claim any expertise on trans people, I am trying to understand this issue and how it may impact those I ok with Rosie51. The only, I suppose medical thought I have shared, I am not a doctor, is that doctors I work with do believe there is a biological reason for general dysphoria. I believe that too based on my own experience but my job is a support role and my case load is rather too varied to specialise in any one area. I simply do not want to get things wrong.

I really do not understand the comments about deja vu. Do I have opinions similar to another poster? Please be assured this is my only account and I don't know anyone else here on a personal level.

What percentage of doctors 'believe that there is a biological reason for gender dysphoria? Can you link us to the study that shows this, please? I wasn't aware that 'doctors' had been asked to confirm their beliefs in this regard.

Are you talking about GPs, psychologists, neurologists or a different specialism, or are you saying that all doctors have been surveyed?

On what experience are you basing your beliefs, if you have a 'rather too varied caseload to specialise'?

Luminance

I really do not understand the comments about deja vu. Do I have opinions similar to another poster? Please be assured this is my only account and I don't know anyone else here on a personal level.

We all have opinions similar to those of others, so I'd be surprised if you didn't share yours with other posters - there are a lot of us about .

Deja vu is a feeling that someone has done something before. In this case going over similar arguments that lead nowhere, Virtue Signalling posts about how the poster is kind and tolerant, with the passive aggressive implication that the rest of us are the opposite of that, and protestations of well-intentioned naivety.

I do not know what percentage, it is of course, as most conversation, entirely anecdotal. Just doctors I have spoken to on the subject. I feel rather disinclined to reveal any personal information at this point about my circles. Just that I am a MHN. Simply as my role involves supporting patients and their families, talking to people and listening to them. That's it. I claim no scientific knowledge there of my own.

Thank you so much Doodledog, especially for your last few posts.
As you know, we don’t always agree about every subject, and that’s allowed.
Thank you in particular for your clear explanation of déjà vu, passive aggressive comments and how they relate particularly to some posts on this thread, where they are so reminiscent of tactics used before when trans are discussed.

I fully understand why you won't want to say anything that might be 'outing', but would suggest that 'doctors believe' is meaningless, and that anyone working in counselling or psychology would realise that. Without revealing your own involvement, maybe you could let us know the specialism of the doctors with whom you have these conversations?

If you are supporting patients and their families, I assume that you have qualifications in counselling and/or psychology, and my understanding (a close family member is a psychologist) is that there is a lot of disagreement and feelings that 'the jury is still out' on the subject of gender dysphoria, as the numbers are so small that it is difficult to find a representative sample that will exclude other causal factors for people claiming to be 'in the wrong body'. Biological reasons are difficult to put forward as the phenomenon is new, which suggests that societal factors are likely to be in play.

I wonder why your experience is so different?

Luminance

I have indeed posted to ask why this would need to impact trans people who are not TRA. I have been told several times now that TRA make trans people in general look bad!

How do you suggest that someone should go about finding out whether the trans person they are considering is a TRA or a trans person who is not a TRA? Do they have any visible distinguishing features?

This YouTube video was posted on MN and is well worth watching. Dr Az Hakeem is a clinical psychiatrist with over 25 years clinical experience treating trans patients. In this video he discusses the Supreme Court ruling and explains the trans position on a clinical footing. A lot about the trans behaviours he talks, why they behave as they do and the clinical reasons behind it. It's an easy watch/listen.

www.drazhakeem.com/specialist-psychotherapy-for-gender-dysphoria

I couldn’t open that Carlotta.
Is this the same?
www.transgendertrend.com/interview-az-hakeem/

Luminance

I saw some criminal damage, no hate crimes committed, I am sure I could be wrong. Intersex people were also represented, I am sure it is a struggle for them too finding appropriate facilities and having sex assigned at birth potentially incorrectly.

Sex is not "assigned" at birth (that sounds like the midwife deciding that since they had delivered six baby girls already this morning and only three boys, the next one was going to be a boy".

If there is the least doubt whether a baby is male or female, a DNA test is done.

No MollyGo it's on YouTube. Try this one:

www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DxA7cCHnO62Y&ved=2ahUKEwjglueLgueMAxX6ZkEAHVdSGuwQwqsBegQIFxAE&usg=AOvVaw3ZYAYjMOwhtWv_YLYLfQfa

So Rosie the transman engaged to your relative, which public toilet does she use?

Genuine question.

Do you think women who identify as men should be placed in mens prisons? They aren't ( I think there was one exception) because of the risk.

If the rule confirmed by the Supreme Court is that you are your biological sex, then a transman is a woman.
Why would I put a woman in a male prison, any more than I’d put a man in a female prison.
If there are trans units in prisons, TW should be in units attached to male prisons and TM in units attached to female prisons.

LizzieDrip

So Rosie the transman engaged to your relative, which public toilet does she use?

Genuine question.

I honestly have absolutely no idea! I do know that a transman on X that I follow Fionne Orlander (who incidentally looks very pretty and feminine) always uses the mens. I notice you refer to 'my' transman as she, I do hope you're consistent and refer to all transwomen as him I'm in full agreement with your accuracy by the way. {smile]