Trans women and single-sex spaces

My husband says no one cares about this in men’s toilets as sometimes when there have been long lines at the women’s toilets there are women who come in to use the cubicles.

Excellent! Trans woman have nothing to fear in using the biologically correct facilities then have they! Off they trot!

Syracute did you read my follow up post? Fionne is a man, a transwoman, who knows that sex is biological, immutable and who respects women's spaces more than a lot of biological women, which is somewhat crazy. I'd hazard a guess that biological women choosing to use the male toilets isn't a common occurrence especially in the UK. Given the smaller queues for men's toilets surely transwomen would be first in line to use them if that was a major consideration? I asked my husband and he's never encountered a woman coming into the men's to use the cubicles in his entire life, in fact his comment was other than the odd 'rushes in desperate but mistaken' that's bs.

Carlotta

^My husband says no one cares about this in men’s toilets as sometimes when there have been long lines at the women’s toilets there are women who come in to use the cubicles.^

Excellent! Trans woman have nothing to fear in using the biologically correct facilities then have they! Off they trot!

Love it! How very reassuring, no danger at all Syracute's husband has demonstrated that 'women' in the male toilets is not unusual or in any way a danger to said women. Transwomen please take note I'll tell DH he's a dinosaur who just hasn't noticed the procession of women he's been sharing the men's loo with!

There are longstanding problems with the need for more public toilets for women. Go to any children’s concert for example and find women queueing with 2 or 3 children. It’s a truth long acknowledged that it’s likely boys up to age 8 or 9 will be with the women who don’t want to ‘risk’ letting the boys go into the gents unsupervised.
This is why women often make use of the gents but I’d bet the farm most would prefer more women only public toilets

Also it us important not to reduce it simply to toilets, ( not that they aren't important) but I find they are somehow used to minimise this issue, it is prisons, sports, refuges, etc etc.

I am tired of my phone autocorrecting is for us.

Galaxy I’m 100% with you in not wanting this reduced to toilets. I recall in the early discussions here, gender critical posters being accused of being obsessed with what was in people’s pants. That was typical rude, dismissive etc -

Yes we used to get that quite a lot Iam.

This ruling does not prohibit mixed sex facilities, what it means is that if you describe a facility as single sex that is what it is. So in a gym you could still have a mixed sex changing room (for all to use) but if you provide a female single sex changing room then it is for women not men.

I hope there’s a ruling that if single sex provision is made for men there has to be the equivalent for women though. Otherwise there is likely to be a choice between Gents and ‘gender neutral’, so women still don’t have privacy. That happened in my last workplace.

The reason given was that the Gents has a row of urinals and women wouldn’t want to use them. In that case, if not reverting to the traditional male and female spaces they should have to remove the urinals and have two ‘gender neutral’ ones.

Iam64

Galaxy I’m 100% with you in not wanting this reduced to toilets. I recall in the early discussions here, gender critical posters being accused of being obsessed with what was in people’s pants. That was typical rude, dismissive etc -

It only seems like yesterday, that that was a frequent cry on here.

It was straight from the Stonewall playbook, and was parroted along with accusations of Nazism and homophobia, calls for feminists to ‘educate themselves’ and the supreme get-out clause that is’intersectional feminism’ (basically the eradication of women as a class).

Hadley Freeman in yesterday's Sunday Times, previously a journalist with The Guardian was to state she lost friends and a job in the trans witch hunt" Here are some extracts from her article which started. "We don't want to be on the wrong side of history" The first time she heard that sentence was in 2015 "I was meeting one of my editors at The Guardian, where I then worked before going on maternity leave." She made the passing comment at that time, "Maybe the paper should be careful about running too many columns by male writers insisting "trans women are women. Should men define what a woman is?" I asked especially in a newspaper that prides itself on its feminist bona fides? That's when I got hit with the wrong side of history smack down for what would be far from the last time." "The wrong side of history" is how Mridul Wadhwa then chef executive of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre justified describing female rape victims as "bigoted" back in 2021 if they asked for a female counsellor rather than a male one who identified as a woman" and that's why advertisers such as Ocado and Barclays pulled their money out of MN when the women's website dared to allow its users to discuss their concerns about how trans rights were conflicting with women's rights. After learning Barclays "top brass" had blacklisted MN for committing crimes against feminism, their founder Justine Roberts was to find later, that the then Barclay's boss, Jes Staley resigned following his ties to Jeffrey Epstein. She went on to state "It is entirely unsurprising to me that so many of those who signed up to this flat-Earth ideology and insisted women should shut up and let me do whatever they wanted to do, should turn out to be so morally bankrupt, who else would take such a stance? what kind of a man would insist in competing in a sports match against a woman. To give into the activists demands was no big deal women were told, but to refuse was fascism. I've been writing about the effects of gender ideology for more than a decade and in that time I've had to leave a job I thought I'd have forever, I've been publicly denounced by people who I thought were friends and I've been blacklisted from more events that I can count. Of course there are lovely trans people but the activists who have dominated this discussion for the past decade are bullies. Those who caved in to them - politicians the NHS, the liberal media the police, schools, publishers, journalists too scared to cover this issue properly. In their absence, extraordinary women such as Susan Smith, Trina Budge and Marion Calder, better known as For Women of Scotland, who I have interviewed this for week for the Sunday Times stepped up to stop the wholes scale theft of women's rights.

And what did they get for their trouble, A lot of abuse. From David Lammy to David Tenant the roll call of the right side of history men who enthusiastically denigrated women for saying primary school level scientific truths. The LBC radio presenter James O'Brien couldn't even grasp why women would be happy about Wednesday's ruling. "Do you pause and ask yourself how did I end up on the same team as Trump" he smirked his brain audibly leaking out of his ears"

So now it's April 2025 and what we knew 10, 20, 1,000 years ago has been confirmed, "A woman is a woman" What a terrible waste of time, money and energy this has all been. On the other hand, how clarifying: now we know who believes in reality and who doesn't. Who is brave and who isn't. Who thinks men can magically become women. Maybe every generation has its witch-hunt its Joe McCarthy era when innocent people are denounced for unimaginably bizarre reasons and now we've lived through ours."

Thank you for sharing TerriBull; excellent.

Many thanks for that Terribull. The Graunian did a mealy mouthed interview with JKR over the weekend; focused almost entirely on the fact that she's fabulously wealthy, smokes a cigar and Watson, Grinch and Radcliffe aren't her friends any more. The time, support and millions of £ that she's given to women's causes was a mere footnote.

Yes there is generally a weird response to women earning and using their money, it makes lots of people cross.

I feel there would be a lot less anger and conflict if NHS gender services had been functioning - in some places hardly existing at all.

I'm thinking particularly about the opportunity for adequate counselling and discussions about whether people really want to take the trans path in their lives, the consequences, whether voices are a result of other presenting conditions or its a real unwavering choice made well.

There are 8 centres around the country that offer anything like this level of service, and you have to be 18, and then there are waiting lists of 3 to 6 years. They do offer informal support to some youth groups.

It was heavily mentioned in the Cass Report which rightly closed the Tavistock but recommenced services for people to access real help and support and self questioning - but it hasn't happened.

Once again I find the responses to my comments rather confusing and unnecessary. I denounce any violence at any protest or of course any defacement of public property, that is clear for all to see. Talking about how young trans people might feel is not an evil act, it is simply an observation. One that perhaps could be considered and should be. If we do not I feel the protections afforded to trans people are being overlooked which is the concern they themselves indeed seem to have at present.

Thank you for sharing that TerriBull.
It sums up how the demand for the acceptance of the lie that you can change sex has affected women for so long.

Wyllow3

I feel there would be a lot less anger and conflict if NHS gender services had been functioning - in some places hardly existing at all.

I'm thinking particularly about the opportunity for adequate counselling and discussions about whether people really want to take the trans path in their lives, the consequences, whether voices are a result of other presenting conditions or its a real unwavering choice made well.

There are 8 centres around the country that offer anything like this level of service, and you have to be 18, and then there are waiting lists of 3 to 6 years. They do offer informal support to some youth groups.

It was heavily mentioned in the Cass Report which rightly closed the Tavistock but recommenced services for people to access real help and support and self questioning - but it hasn't happened.

To finish this off re provision for young people under 18 - there are 2 centres on England in Alderhey and Great Ormond Street, and waiting lists are over 2 years for even initial appointments - if you can afford to travel.

Luminance - you seem to be finding victim status for yourself no matter what

Now we've had the Supreme Court ruling Wyllow, hopefully things will improve and more of these services will be available.

I agree that there needs to be more and I would add better counselling and discussion for those considering living their lives in their preferred gender.

It does IMO need to be made clear that they will retain their biological sex as this conflating of sex and gender has been responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

It really would be helpful if you were specific Luminance. Vague references to responses you've received being confusing and unnecessary doesn't mean anything if you don't say which responses you're referring too.

For example, who has said that talking about how young trans people might feel (is) an evil act? I haven't seen anyone here say they are not concerned.

Mollygo

Thank you for sharing that TerriBull.
It sums up how the demand for the acceptance of the lie that you can change sex has affected women for so long.

Although I can understand the desire to somehow prove you can change biology, it has been as far as I am concerned a wrecking ball of the many dialogues, instead of focusing on recognising living a life with a changed gender.

Smileless2012

Now we've had the Supreme Court ruling Wyllow, hopefully things will improve and more of these services will be available.

I agree that there needs to be more and I would add better counselling and discussion for those considering living their lives in their preferred gender.

It does IMO need to be made clear that they will retain their biological sex as this conflating of sex and gender has been responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

Totally agree with all that Smileless2012.

Let’s face this - our mental health services were amongst other areas of public services devastated by austerity. No one in need is getting effective support.
A close friend sank into a significant depression. She was constantly working out the best way to end her life. Luckily at 3am she phoned a friend who is a clinical psychologist and simply wept. Friends rallied over the next year, during which her GP prescribed anti depressants and referred her for counselling. This involved completing an on line questionnaire which confirmed serious depression, thoughts of ending life.
Nine month waiting list during which support from friends alongside a good GP and meds helped. An appointment was becoming available which meant completing the on line questionnaire. My friend was phoned by a nurse in that service. She was told she no longer fitted their criteria, wasn’t ill enough
Of course people questioning their sex, their sexuality need mh input, which is vanishingly rare, particularly for children