Trans women and single-sex spaces

Mental health services are woefully inadequate in many parts of the country, especially for children and young people. I know parents who've been told they could wait two or three years - yes, years - for CAHMS appointments for their children, for a range of issues.

Luminance, if you take every post as about you then you will find them confusing and unnecessary. This is a general discussion, and you are one poster among many. Which posts are making you feel confused, and which are unnecessary? If you are more specific we might be able to help you to understand. Counsellors are usually better able to detach than this, I think, as they learn early in their training that not everything people say is about them. Maybe this inability to separate from every posts explains why you often think you are being misquoted - people are simply referring to someone other than you.

Iam64
Indeed, no one is getting effective support!!!

I agree that there needs to be more and I would add better counselling and discussion for those considering living their lives in their preferred gender

What I was trying to say was that this indeed was specifically laid out in the Cass report recommendations but has not happened.

Iam64

Luminance - you seem to be finding victim status for yourself no matter what

Oh dear no, just confusion on my part to whether I have alluded to things by mistake at times but I don't think that is the case.

I agree that Austerity has made things worse, but I also think that many of the 'solutions' to what are difficult problems aren't likely to help either. Things like special new prisons for transpeople, shiny new wards (or private rooms) in hospitals, and so on would be great if they could be given to all; but at a time when everyone is sick of waiting lists and unsatisfactory services, it does sometimes feel as though claiming trans status can be a way of getting preferential treatment.

I hope nobody wants to make being trans a reason to treat someone less favourably, but it shouldn't mean that everyone else is treated less favourably either. Pouring resources into counselling for transpeople when others, including children, have to wait for years to get appointments for equally life-changing conditions is not a solution that is likely to be widely accepted.

I am more worried about what type of counselling, the suicide rates that I have seen following surgical transition look of concern to me. It is really hard to get a clear picture.

Surely everyone, whatever their gender, age or beliefs deserves an equal chance to access services and shouldn’t this be based on assessments to try and certain the priority and urgency?

I speak as a mother of a child, now 24, very badly let down by the NHS mental health services for 10 years.

In terms of “safe” spaces, surely the answer is male, female and unisex loos, changing rooms etc? My two daughters, both lesbians, have been subject to harrassment in gay clubs and bars from heterosexual men who think it’s fun to frequent these places and “change” these women.

Everyone deserves safe spaces, and sadly, SOME males have a lot to answer!

Galaxy

I am more worried about what type of counselling, the suicide rates that I have seen following surgical transition look of concern to me. It is really hard to get a clear picture.

I read in a report recently
Patients who have undergone gender-affirming surgery are associated with a significantly elevated risk of suicide, highlighting the necessity for comprehensive post-procedure psychiatric support.
Since it’s already claimed that those who want gender affirming surgery are at a high risk of suicide and need psychiatric support, the problems facing counsellors are even more difficult.

I'm not trying to open an argument about who is more deserving et al but pointing out the consequences of not having these services which I am sure leads to some of the frustration and anger we sometimes criticise - the majority of the people at the demo were young people who fall into the category of not having had the opportunities for some considerable time. And that in considering the issues its not enough to argue theory, real practical issues face decision makers.

I don't see how any amount of counselling and support will alter the belief that some trans women have that they have the right be given access to women's safe spaces.

Smileless2012

I don't see how any amount of counselling and support will alter the belief that some trans women have that they have the right be given access to women's safe spaces.

No, but maybe if some cognisance is taken of your post at 11:38 where you agree, as most do, that we need
more and. . . better counselling and discussion for those considering living their lives in their preferred gender.

You also point out that

It does . . . need to be made clear that they will retain their biological sex as this conflating of sex and gender has been responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

I have read, or heard, not just on GN, of trans who have gone on to live their trans lives successfully.

However, I have also read the heart rending stories from those
-for whom transitioning didn’t make their lives better in the way they thought it would,
-or who feel life is worse, with no chance of going back,

-or who feel it hasn’t allowed them to do what they thought transitioning would enable them to do,
- or who feel they were mislead

-and the many it has left in pain.

The counselling, whilst offering necessary support, needs to include those possible outcomes, *in particular that they will not be able to change sex, nor legally be
considered to have done so.*

Much more funding into mental health is desperately needed. Mental health impacts every facet of a person's life and ability to function well. Almost everyone will struggle with their mental health at some point in their life. I would argue that mental health should be equal to physical health in many regards. The amount of women I have spoken to who have said they were written off as anxious when seeking help is appalling. Anxiety is a symptom not a personality trait.

The aggressive men who demand to do so in order to offend or worse are unlikely to go for counselling!

They are opportunistic and the change in law is certainly aimed at clearly laying down limits for them.

Counselling can change outlooks - ie accepting third spaces, seeing other's POV, above all individuals deciding if they are in fact trans and want to take it further and if they do how to navigate challenges ahead, as well as a drop in numbers.

But we are dealing with a whole number of situations. Some, like prisons and womens refuges are clear cut. Others less so especially if there are no gender neutral provisions and it will depend on common sense plus the law and different institutions to make decisions. Hopefully there will be more guidance in the summer.

Sorry to be vague but I have in mind decisions like - transwomen who have "passed" and lived as women for many years who have used womens areas in the gym and no one actually knows - but if someone "suspects" then what? a strip search?
Or more difficult decisions like those same women in hospital, and of course the nurses will know, but are they to be now placed in a mens ward if there are no facilities for them.

I think that the majority of transwomen will carry on as before. They intend no harm to women. Why would they when they have chosen to live as women.
I think hospitals will deal with it. There are side wards and beds can be curtained off.
It's the TRAs who mean harm to women and have done a lot of damage. I find it hard to see them as true transwomen when they behave like aggressive men. Some even wear beards or tights that show that they are male.

If organisations place men in female spaces they will be breaking the law, and there will be legal action against them.

You also can't base a law on 'passing' it is beyond cruel.

Carlotta must have had a different edition of yesterday's article in The Guardian on JK Rowling.
My copy, after the initial sentence to which she refers, dedicates a spread, over two pages, referencing her work in this area- "
" a fearless figurehead for gender critical campaigner for gender critical campaigners"
" detractors are highly vocal.. ( labelling) ..her a TERF" and so on.
I saw nothing " mealy mouthed" in it at all.
Perhaps the newspaper article was completely different in Carlotta's area of the country...

AGAA4

I think that the majority of transwomen will carry on as before. They intend no harm to women. Why would they when they have chosen to live as women.
I think hospitals will deal with it. There are side wards and beds can be curtained off.
It's the TRAs who mean harm to women and have done a lot of damage. I find it hard to see them as true transwomen when they behave like aggressive men. Some even wear beards or tights that show that they are male.

I think thats the reality of what will happen

I think thats the reality of what will happen

So do I, except that I fear the TW who
have caused the need for biological truth to be the rule won’t hesitate to use any trans they notice, suspect or know are using female spaces, changing rooms etc. for that old excuse * it’s not fair! They’re doing it so why can’t I?*

And what’s the difference between a man in a frock who claims he’s a woman and a man with a beard who claims he’s a woman, when they’re both breaking a rule?

I think the details of laws and guidance, when we get to the point, have to take into account the reality of the provisions there actually are, and not be punitive towards to say nurses who make a "best outcome" judgements. We've given them the power to block that man with a beard claiming he's a woman and demanding this and that.

We simply couldn't function in the NHS with the resources we have if we make impossible demands on already stretched and stressed doctors and nurses and sick patients.

Doodledog

I agree that Austerity has made things worse, but I also think that many of the 'solutions' to what are difficult problems aren't likely to help either. Things like special new prisons for transpeople, shiny new wards (or private rooms) in hospitals, and so on would be great if they could be given to all; but at a time when everyone is sick of waiting lists and unsatisfactory services, it does sometimes feel as though claiming trans status can be a way of getting preferential treatment.

I hope nobody wants to make being trans a reason to treat someone less favourably, but it shouldn't mean that everyone else is treated less favourably either. Pouring resources into counselling for transpeople when others, including children, have to wait for years to get appointments for equally life-changing conditions is not a solution that is likely to be widely accepted.

There should be good health service for all . No matter what ! Having lived in other countries the UK is so behind on what it delivers . Mental is especially neglected .
There was just an article about how the UK is falling more behind ( as warned by those in research ) in offering new treatments for cancer that have been the standard on the continent . This is a result of Brexit. You can only imagine that mental health will be only more neglected .

Mollygo

*I think thats the reality of what will happen*

So do I, except that I fear the TW who
have caused the need for biological truth to be the rule won’t hesitate to use any trans they notice, suspect or know are using female spaces, changing rooms etc. for that old excuse * it’s not fair! They’re doing it so why can’t I?*

And what’s the difference between a man in a frock who claims he’s a woman and a man with a beard who claims he’s a woman, when they’re both breaking a rule?

So who is going to be policing the dressing rooms, the toilets and all these spaces ?
Check ID’s ?
Make everyone prove they are ?? M or F?

Wyllow3

I'm not trying to open an argument about who is more deserving et al but pointing out the consequences of not having these services which I am sure leads to some of the frustration and anger we sometimes criticise - the majority of the people at the demo were young people who fall into the category of not having had the opportunities for some considerable time. And that in considering the issues its not enough to argue theory, real practical issues face decision makers.

I am not trying to pit one set of needs against another either. I carefully said that. But so many 'solutions' involve what could easily be seen as special measures for transpeople at the expense of other groups who are also in need of help, and I can't help thinking that this might make things worse, rather than better.

Syracute I'm not sure why you quoted my post. I am not in any way saying that there should not be hugely improved services regarding MH for all. What made you think I was, or have I misunderstood your reply? The exclamation mark made it look as though you were disagreeing.

Luminance, your patients have clearly navigated the system to get counselling from you (or have endured the lengthy waiting lists). Obviously this doesn't mean that they were not written off as anxious before getting their appointments, but you say Anxiety is not a personality trait, and I would agree. It is a condition though (as opposed to a symptom), isn't it?

A trans woman who has been living unknown and unobtrusively cannot walk into the men's if it puts them at risk from those who see them do so surely?