Trans women and single-sex spaces

Wow. Even the people arguing for some kindness towards transpeople are getting attacked now.

Glasweegran

Wow. Even the people arguing for some kindness towards transpeople are getting attacked now.

?

How do we know that men are not commenting on here.

Men maybe commenting on here, however it is biological women who are more likely to contribute if they have concerns about transwomen using public loos, joining the WI (which they won’t be allowed to do from 1 April), or participating in women’s sport etc.

Another old thread popping up!

There are endless comments on social media about how unfair it is to say males aren’t women, and how distressing it is for some of the wannabes to be excluded.

Maybe they need reminding that the problems arose and continue to arise through the actions of some of their ilk.
Those actions brought about the need for rules to protect females and prevent their erasure by misogynistic men.

So the scientific fact that there are two distinct sexes that are immutable is a problem? Sorry I can't get exercised over that. I'm sad that I'm not a 5'8" super slim model without a wrinkle or stretch mark in sight, but my sadness doesn't change the reality that I'm an overweight 5'5" grandmother with more wrinkles and craters than the moon! The one constant is I was born a female and will die as a female, something no male will ever achieve no matter how loudly they shout!!!

Rosie51

So the scientific fact that there are two distinct sexes that are immutable is a problem?

For men it is. And also for other misogynistic or pro patriarchal people.
Now celebs and others have discovered that - (ludicrously even in early childhood) deciding their offspring are trans is another attention getter. Child abuse seems to be acceptable in that instance.

I find it alarming how many celebrities and other high profile people have 'trans children'. The incidence appears much higher than in the 'ordinary' population. Sometimes it seems 'trans kids' has replaced handbag dogs as the latest fashion accessory.

I think this thread may have been revived because with April 1st, as someone else above has said, the WI yearly membership fees will be due and I think many local WIs are going to be riven and some may disappear because of the ruling about members having to declare themselves biological women at birth.
It's not straightforward, I support the comments immediately above, I know that there are biologically, men and women who are 'intersex', I don't know the proportions but I think that it's those who push who have caused the 'problem' for 'quiet transwomen and transmen' and the pushers are often politically motivated mysogynistic people and the ramifications re sport, women's spaces and so on just add to the difficulties.
It disturbs me that many women (perhaps men) are reacting with a knee-jerk response which is about a notion of freedom rather than scientific understanding. The celebrities and high level people with their trendy trans-children are muddling the waters. I have no problem with having a lesbian daughter but the number of people who have immediately corrected me with the term 'bi' infuriates me.
Men and women have always lived quietly in same sex pairs, the armed forces have always had women who signed up as male and so on, in the 70s and 80s we had comedies like the Carry On series and various tv series which publicly acknowledged that some females and males feel different and behave likewise including how they choose to dress.
It's so distressing that this has become an issue for aggressive views, medical interference, attempts to make laws about gender and ultimately more and more unhappy people.

Well said Mollygo, fortunately common sense seems to be prevailing at last.

Rosie51

I find it alarming how many celebrities and other high profile people have 'trans children'. The incidence appears much higher than in the 'ordinary' population. Sometimes it seems 'trans kids' has replaced handbag dogs as the latest fashion accessory.

I don’t like the term ‘trans children’. Children should not be making these life changing decisions. If they reach 18 or 21 and are hell bent upon becoming trans gender then fair enough. But children should be left alone to be children.

Blossoming

Probably because the wording of the original Gender Recognition Act was not clear about sex-based rights. I’m sure there will be some initial problems but it’s a big step in the right direction.

Depends. If I was running a business I'd be inclined to say all spaces are mixed sex
as that seems easiest. Might not result in what people hope for.

Mollygo

Rosie51

So the scientific fact that there are two distinct sexes that are immutable is a problem?

For men it is. And also for other misogynistic or pro patriarchal people.
Now celebs and others have discovered that - (ludicrously even in early childhood) deciding their offspring are trans is another attention getter. Child abuse seems to be acceptable in that instance.

You know there are trans men and trans women.

If the bones of trans women, regardless of whether they have had surgery/medication or not, are dug up in 100 years time they will be identified as men. Similarly with trans men.
Nothing can change biological sex

theworriedwell

You know there are trans men and trans women.

Of course I know.
The problems arose because some trans women (all of whom are in fact male), decided that not only were they trans women, but that they were women.

Then, they decided that their new persona allowed them to invade female safe spaces, prisons and hospital wards, and to cheat in female sports.
They also decided that anyone who declared that you can’t change sex, were deserving of death threats, cancellation etc.

This behaviour is not only detrimental to women (AHF) including Lesbians, who have, but to any of the trans who had been living quietly under the radar and to the many men who don’t cheat or offer violence.

Their concern about any of these effects just highlights the fact that they are male, and shameful examples of males as well.

Mollygo yes! I agree with you.

theworriedwell

^Depends. If I was running a business I'd be inclined to say all spaces are mixed sex
as that seems easiest. Might not result in what people hope for.^

Certainly wouldn’t be popular with those TW who pride themselves in using female spaces.
If it resulted in changing rooms, toilets including each urinal etc. with compulsory cubicles so the pervs have no chance to ogle unwilling victims or, as I have experienced, flaunt the fact that they are a jock in a frock to the discomfort of women, that would be better.

If I was running a business obviously you would be happy to cover the additional cost of making changes to the facilities in order to provide safe areas for all the workforce.

What you’re actually implying is that you don’t feel women are entitled to facilities safe from incursion by males whatever they say they are.

Mollygo

theworriedwell

^Depends. If I was running a business I'd be inclined to say all spaces are mixed sex
as that seems easiest. Might not result in what people hope for.^

Certainly wouldn’t be popular with those TW who pride themselves in using female spaces.
If it resulted in changing rooms, toilets including each urinal etc. with compulsory cubicles so the pervs have no chance to ogle unwilling victims or, as I have experienced, flaunt the fact that they are a jock in a frock to the discomfort of women, that would be better.

If I was running a business obviously you would be happy to cover the additional cost of making changes to the facilities in order to provide safe areas for all the workforce.

What you’re actually implying is that you don’t feel women are entitled to facilities safe from incursion by males whatever they say they are.

No I didn't say that at all, you made it up. I said the easiest thing to do would be not having single sex spaces, no need to police them, no risks of someone being somewhere they shouldn't be. It would be the easiest thing to do

Tww you said
Might not result in what people hope for.

I gave you examples of who might/might not be happy with mixed sex spaces.

The bottom line is that TW don’t want women to have safe spaces free from males.

But if you’re going to have mixed spaces, do you think that urinals should just be in plain sight when you walk in to the mixed sex area? And if not how would you deal with that without providing male only space?
Or should they use the cubicles and have no urinals?

Do you think employers will be happy to provide properly

It won't be the easiest thing in the workplace because it would break the law. You have to provide single sex facilities for your employees, it is a piece of legislation that the activists overlooked. Single sex or fully enclosed single cubicle.

I’m fed up with how ‘some’ transwomen want to take over using the women’s loos as if it is their right.

Galaxy

It won't be the easiest thing in the workplace because it would break the law. You have to provide single sex facilities for your employees, it is a piece of legislation that the activists overlooked. Single sex or fully enclosed single cubicle.

Oh id always go for the fully enclosed cubicle. I have no more desire to strip off and change in front of other women than in front of men.

Mollygo

Tww you said
Might not result in what people hope for.

I gave you examples of who might/might not be happy with mixed sex spaces.

The bottom line is that TW don’t want women to have safe spaces free from males.

But if you’re going to have mixed spaces, do you think that urinals should just be in plain sight when you walk in to the mixed sex area? And if not how would you deal with that without providing male only space?
Or should they use the cubicles and have no urinals?

Do you think employers will be happy to provide properly

The single enclosed cubicle in toilets or changing rooms. Solves all the policing it issues, the upsets and upset. Much more civilised.

So as I said, enclosed cubicles for urinals. Toilets used for women and those needing more than a wee.
Much more civilised . . . Apart from the poor aim of some males, especially those struggling with tights!