Trans women and single-sex spaces

Politicsnerd So Madgran77, your opinion is that when it comes to the safety and comfort of women, the intentions behind someone's actions are not important. You seem to be arguing that regardless of what a person means to convey, their behaviour should be condemned as inappropriate. So perception trumps intention. You also seem to believe that not disputeding actions makes proof of those actions unnecessary.

I am quite clearly not generalizing across all cases/situations/events. In the context of the example I gave where Rose:
*walked round the womens changing rooms in boxer shorts
* admitted they were still having penetrative sex with their girlfriend
* consequently and unsurprisingly when surrounded by various women in various stages of undress, had a normal male reaction to that
* continuously asked female nurses when they were getting changed
*stared at women's breasts in the changing room

then yes, whatever Rose's intentions might be, that behaviour is inappropriate.

Just as it would be inappropriate for women identifying as men with no treatment, still having penetrative sex with a man/or maybe pregnant to be wandering around a male changing room staring at their penis's

Equally it would be inappropriate of me as a woman from birth, to walk around a women's changing room staring at other peoples breasts or asking them when they are getting changed.

There is little point carrying on this discussion so I will leave it there. We arent going to agree and having to endlessly explain the points made is distracting from the main points of the thread.

Oh dear, how have I managed to offend so many people? All I’m saying is that our pool has a system that seems to work and could be considered for other places in future. I found it very helpful when taking young DS and DGS swimming on my own. It doesn’t matter how anyone identifies themselves as the place is, like the pool itself, full of people, in swimwear, and if you prefer to spend time trying to work out if they are male or female, that is up to you, Mollygo.

Rosie51, what leads you to think that my views on the admission of transwomen, particularly those who have not had surgery and hormones, to women’s single-sex spaces are any different from those of most posters on this thread? Or that I don’t have the utmost sympathy for lesbians who are told that they should have sex with men who say that they are women? You cannot make assumptions of that kind from the fact that I find common changing rooms (as in Center Parcs, as someone mentioned) a good idea.

Wheniwasyourage

and if you prefer to spend time trying to work out if they are male or female, that is up to you, Mollygo

I don’t choose to do that but I shouldn’t have to do that either.

Those TIM/TW who have caused all the problems are quite willing to demonstrate that they are liars and have lied their way into female safe spaces, claiming their lie gives them the right to be there.
Then back comes the cry, sadly from women as well as TW/TIM,
It’s up to you to report them.

Once more passing the buck for their inappropriate actions.

Grandmabatty

I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades. However, this recent influx of aggressive males pretending to be women to hijack our spaces in order to feed their fetish has to be dealt with firmly. Every organisation has bent over backwards to accommodate them and god only knows why. It is about time this was sorted

The trouble is that there hasn't been any actual "influx of aggressive males" trying to hijack spaces. The idea that there is is nothing buy anti-trans hype. Let's face it, if you are a bad man wanting to access women's toilets for whatever reason, it's a lot easier to just get a job as a toilet attendant than it is to spend months living as a woman in front of everyone you know in your family and work and go through a long and expensive process to get a certificate that no-one is going to check anyway...
There have always been transgender people, as you rightly point out, other than a handful of particularly vocal people, they live their lives as quietly as everyone else, but are now being protrayed as mentally ill fetishists and a danger to others, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Transwomen are abused more than other women, but commit less crime than men.... if you follow that through, the more transwomen there are, the safer all women are.

Wheniwasyourage I think if you reread my post you'll see I enquired as to your views on those other areas, I didn't assume anything. I was interested to know how far your acceptance of mixed sex spaces went. Even if the mixed sex facilities work well for most, there should still be the option of single sex facilities. For some people that is a religious obligation that cannot be breached, but women without religious obligations also self exclude when single sex facilities aren't provided.

There wasn't a single accurate point in your post Glasweegran which is an achievement.

Galaxy

There wasn't a single accurate point in your post Glasweegran which is an achievement.

But some people believe it. 😥

Glasweegran are you aware that you don't need a GRC to self declare as a woman in many places. Hospitals accept self ID, gyms accept self ID, prisons were accepting self ID. As to your claims that transwomen are abused more than other women that would seem absurd when two women are murdered every week. Well over half the number of transwomen prisoners are in prison for sexual offences including rape which is a much higher percentage than in male prisoners who don't identify as women. Not quite the picture you've painted then.

Mollygo

Galaxy

There wasn't a single accurate point in your post Glasweegran which is an achievement.

But some people believe it. 😥

“To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true”.
Aristotle

Clever chap that Aristotle

Madgran77 You are telling me yours (and, apparently the Daily Mail's) opinion as if it had all been proved court. It hasn't so it's irrelevant.

For someone calling themselves PoliticaNerd you are singularly ill informed. Perhaps you should read other publications than the Daily Mail that you keep mentioning and seem to get most of your opinions from.

There is no point in arguing about it here and now. It’s a done deal. I’m waiting for the inevitable fallout.

PoliticsNerd

Madgran77 You are telling me yours (and, apparently the Daily Mail's) opinion as if it had all been proved court. It hasn't so it's irrelevant.

As I said, I'm not explaining any further.

Glasweegran

Grandmabatty

I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades. However, this recent influx of aggressive males pretending to be women to hijack our spaces in order to feed their fetish has to be dealt with firmly. Every organisation has bent over backwards to accommodate them and god only knows why. It is about time this was sorted

The trouble is that there hasn't been any actual "influx of aggressive males" trying to hijack spaces. The idea that there is is nothing buy anti-trans hype. Let's face it, if you are a bad man wanting to access women's toilets for whatever reason, it's a lot easier to just get a job as a toilet attendant than it is to spend months living as a woman in front of everyone you know in your family and work and go through a long and expensive process to get a certificate that no-one is going to check anyway...
There have always been transgender people, as you rightly point out, other than a handful of particularly vocal people, they live their lives as quietly as everyone else, but are now being protrayed as mentally ill fetishists and a danger to others, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Transwomen are abused more than other women, but commit less crime than men.... if you follow that through, the more transwomen there are, the safer all women are.

Thank you Glasweegran. I was beginning to to think that the "court of moral outrage" that has decided its opinions rank higher than the law, was taking over GN.

Madgran77

PoliticsNerd

Madgran77 You are telling me yours (and, apparently the Daily Mail's) opinion as if it had all been proved court. It hasn't so it's irrelevant.

As I said, I'm not explaining any further.

I didnt ask you for an explanation. I was just checking that my unravelling of you post was correct. I dud ask for facts as they seem to be sparce to none existent.

you your

“Transwomen are abused more than other women, but commit less crime than men.... “ Glaswegian

In my book that means men abusing men dressed as women!

Rosie51

Glasweegran are you aware that you don't need a GRC to self declare as a woman in many places. Hospitals accept self ID, gyms accept self ID, prisons were accepting self ID. As to your claims that transwomen are abused more than other women that would seem absurd when two women are murdered every week. Well over half the number of transwomen prisoners are in prison for sexual offences including rape which is a much higher percentage than in male prisoners who don't identify as women. Not quite the picture you've painted then.

Hey Politics Nerd read any of that did you? What about the black nurse who was suspended for calling a paedophile trans woman a "Mr" whilst they were attending hospital for a urinary infection. An ensuing examination of the affected area would have categorised them as "male" quite possibly why she called him "Mr" in that context. Would you stay firmly on the outside of the Court of Moral Outrage when the nurse had that person physically lash out at her and call her the "N" word or are you cool with that. Similarly are you ok with Isla Bryson double rapist temporarily being housed in a women's prison, or the woman in an NHS Hospital who was sexually assaulted by a trans woman. Whilst most of us accept that the majority of trans women are just ordinary people, not a threat. If, anyone can roll up to what should be safe areas where women may feel vulnerable then there is always going to be a risk there. The fact that a disproportionate amount of people in prison, formerly men now identify as trans women would maybe suggest that there are some who would cynically use that ploy to manipulate their way into women's spaces. You can call it moral outrage but self ID is a threat to the safety of women in any place that should be single sex. Why do you think it's ok for instances mentioned on this thread where in tact males have been in women's changing rooms and are anything but discrete.

Crikey it is like MN circa 2016. I haven't heard some of those arguments for years. Hysteria, moral outrage, can I put a fiver on pearl clutching popping up next.

I think the clue is in the title Trans women in single-sex spaces

It is biologically impossible to change one’s sex, gender yes.

Single sex spaces are just that, single sex spaces, not for those who have chosen to live not as their natal sex…

I have said this on more than one previous thread on this subject: our swimming pool changing room is for both sexes and all ages. There are cubicles to change in and swimwear must be worn in the showers. Apart from the occasional toddler, nobody is publicly naked. It works, families remain together and nobody cares or notices what sex others are or say they are.
The leisure centre that I use has the same arrangement. Larger cubicles for families, wheelchair accessible ones as well as single cubicles. It is very inclusive but, most importantly, provides privacy. People emerge from the cubicles in swimwear or fully dressed and there is no question of seeing people naked. Unfortunately, that cannot be said of the female only changing rooms for the gym. Women walk about in there in the buff and that is a sight that I really don't want to see when there are cubicles available.

I dispute that “there hasn’t been any influx of aggressive males”.

As a very ordinary woman living a very ordinary life I have, as I said previously, experienced more than one incidence of behaviour from males identifying as females, that caused me to feel threatened and “abused”.

If statistics show that transwomen are more abused that is because there is no mechanism for natural women to report the abuse they suffer if it comes from a trans.

In all the cases I experienced my expressed concern (complaint) was dismissed either as ‘If you don’t like it, don’t use the facility” or “ We know, but we can’t do anything about it because the person identifies as female.”

If this has happened to me, in order army everyday places, it has happened to others. Extrapolated across the female population it must be massive but the trans lobby has effectively prevented its reporting as happening.

But truth was never a part of their ideology.

Cubicles aren't always available, gyms I've been to, have maybe a couple. Most people step out of the shower with just a towel, unless you're adept at that rigmarole of getting dry and dressed keeping the towel around you, at some time you're going to be naked, most are fairly circumspect in the palaver of getting dressed, a few aren't, but that's their prerogative in what should be a single sex area.

Pantglas2

“Transwomen are abused more than other women, but commit less crime than men.... “ Glaswegian

In my book that means men abusing men dressed as women!

That’s probably too complex for Glaswegians and PN . . .

Unless there’s been a flood of females attacking TIM that hasn’t hit the news yet.

PoliticsNerd

Glasweegran

Grandmabatty

I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades. However, this recent influx of aggressive males pretending to be women to hijack our spaces in order to feed their fetish has to be dealt with firmly. Every organisation has bent over backwards to accommodate them and god only knows why. It is about time this was sorted

The trouble is that there hasn't been any actual "influx of aggressive males" trying to hijack spaces. The idea that there is is nothing buy anti-trans hype. Let's face it, if you are a bad man wanting to access women's toilets for whatever reason, it's a lot easier to just get a job as a toilet attendant than it is to spend months living as a woman in front of everyone you know in your family and work and go through a long and expensive process to get a certificate that no-one is going to check anyway...
There have always been transgender people, as you rightly point out, other than a handful of particularly vocal people, they live their lives as quietly as everyone else, but are now being protrayed as mentally ill fetishists and a danger to others, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Transwomen are abused more than other women, but commit less crime than men.... if you follow that through, the more transwomen there are, the safer all women are.

Thank you Glasweegran. I was beginning to to think that the "court of moral outrage" that has decided its opinions rank higher than the law, was taking over GN.

Thank you Glasweegran. I was beginning to to think that the "court of moral outrage" that has decided its opinions rank higher than the law, was taking over GN.

Oh my PoliticsNerd I think you've exposed yourself with this reply. Willing to accept every word of Glasweegran's post because it fits your narrative without a single question. Something no other poster enjoys from you. Why not look for yourself for the sex offender figures amongst transwomen prisoners, and you can easily confirm the numbers of women murdered each year. Then perhaps you can tell us how many transwomen are murdered each year?