Trans women and single-sex spaces

JenniferEccles

Well I for one feel sad for the poor nurse who has been suspended after referring to a male ‘transgender’ patient as he.

This individual is a convicted paedophile, handcuffed to a prison guard who lunged at her, screaming racist abuse, yet because he wished to identify as a woman the nurse was deemed to be in the wrong.

Utter madness.

Added to that, this patient was referred because he had urinary problem. The very experienced nurse was quite correct to refer to him as a man because, to have referred to a male who was to be treated for urinary problems as a female, could have caused confusion and problems for the patient himself.

I hope that nurse is reinstated, receives an apology for the treatment she has received and for the racism she suffered.

Iam64

Nuala McGovern interviewed Julie Bindel about her latest book on women’s hour today. Bindel argued in support of lesbian women keeping that identity rather than gay/non binary etc. she pointed out lesbian identifies female, whereas gay in her view, includes men who tend to get more attention than women.
They also discussed single sex spaces, her views on that remain like most 70’s feminists, ie men should not be allowed
Nuala McGovern persistently put the alternative argument. She pointed out more than once that “some people will find your opinion offensive”.
Go Julie Bindel. Stand your ground. My view was the challenge mirrored the anti terf line rather than simply seeking balance

More people will find the views of Nuala McGovern offensive. Or just plain wrong.

It had become a case of those who shout the loudest win and get their own way.
It is not just or right that bullies should win and women's rights eroded. Perhaps we are beginning to see that common sense is starting to prevail.

No, transgender people should not use facilities for the disabled. As has been pointed out, these were hard-fought for. Transgender people must now fight for their own right to facilities without encroaching on others' rights to single-sex places.

That person was very sick of mind in a number of ways - manipulative - racist - and of course the nurse should never have been called out.

I do have concerns about the well being of transpeople who only want to live quiet lives, respecting others, in the gender that they experience life in.

People who have family or close friends who are trans want them to be able to live as full lives as possible without fear of being attacked or threatened as well often don't post on some trans threads.

Some posters are hostile to the idea of trans per se or classify it, as lesbians or homosexuals used to be, as sick or mentally ill, but

" the medical profession generally accepts and strives to be inclusive of transgender individuals. Major medical organizations like the British Medical Association (BMA) advocate for the rights of transgender people to access healthcare and live with dignity, including respecting their gender identity"

In other GN threads it's been (infrequently, but still there) discussed as part of family and everyday life, not the big dramatic cases.In the waiting lists for counselling/treatment/GRC.

Its a question for me of balance, of finding ways to best live together all round without fears of threats or harm.

(I was referring to the person/patient in Jennifer Eccles post)

I am not hostile I just know that transwomen are men. I think in am age where misinformation is a concern, asking people to accept a lie is not the way forward for society.

The BMA is a trade union first and foremost protecting its members. The GMC is responsible for the regulation and certification of doctors. When you have a hospital doctor who is biologically male declaring he is a 'biological female' and no senior medics are calling him out, then trust in doctors is compromised.
Transpeople should enjoy the same legal rights and welfares as anybody else and I believe they do. What they should not enjoy is additional rights that compromise the rights of other groups. Compelled speech is one such additional right that should not be afforded. Forcing others to lie can never be justified. The 'no debate' mantra was shouted for years to shut down opposition. It doesn't work any more.

Gender recognition certificates are easily bought, just because you have one doesn't make you a woman, there needs to be a third neutral space, they should not infringe on biological womens spaces.

Rosie51 👏👏👏
It’s ridiculous that those of us who worked hard to have a feminist perspective integral to our various types of employment are dismissed as ‘middle aged hysterics’. Politics Nerd the last group of people I heard dismissing older women using that kind of language would have been some of the men who worked in the engineering factories where i was an office ‘girl’

I’m officially elderly according to my recent nhs involvement. I’m neither middle aged or hysterical whatever my age. I’m an adult human female not a cis either

Fair enough about the role of the BMS as trade unions, I would have been better quoting NHS guidelines.

My concern in the quote was simply to make clear the medical profession don't regard being trans as an "illness" or "aberration" as some still believe.

BMA!

Why do women have to undress together in one room? They dont use the loo together at home. Why can't sex classifications be removed from such private spaces and just have changing rooms for humans - solo.

I would never dare send a young boy into a mens room out of fear. Little boys can whiz in the ladies room... but wait !?!

Oh my, can you imagine students learning about these awkward times ,hundred years later, in a history lesson? What a bright lot we will seem.

In the future they will be astounded that there was a time that people pretended humans could change sex.

Galaxy

In the future they will be astounded that there was a time that people pretended humans could change sex.

👏👏👏

Galaxy

In the future they will be astounded that there was a time that people pretended humans could change sex.

👏👏👏

Macadia

Why do women have to undress together in one room? They dont use the loo together at home. Why can't sex classifications be removed from such private spaces and just have changing rooms for humans - solo.

I would never dare send a young boy into a mens room out of fear. Little boys can whiz in the ladies room... but wait !?!

Oh my, can you imagine students learning about these awkward times ,hundred years later, in a history lesson? What a bright lot we will seem.

That would mean creating many individual changing rooms, which I presume would be more expensive - or at least that's the argument which would more than likely be made against it.

Grandmabatty
I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades.

Yes, the actions of more recently emerged TW/TIM have done as much harm to those that you mentioned as they have to females.

However, as soon as TW begun to cheat in sports, using the advantages that the male body gives them to take awards away from females and other activities where they perceived their lie about being women brought them an advantage, the rot set in.

Mollygo

Grandmabatty
I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades.

Yes, the actions of more recently emerged TW/TIM have done as much harm to those that you mentioned as they have to females.

However, as soon as TW begun to cheat in sports, using the advantages that the male body gives them to take awards away from females and other activities where they perceived their lie about being women brought them an advantage, the rot set in.

Totally agree 👍

Mollygo

Grandmabatty
I feel quite sad for trans women who gave quietly lived alongside the rest of us for decades.

Yes, the actions of more recently emerged TW/TIM have done as much harm to those that you mentioned as they have to females.

However, as soon as TW begun to cheat in sports, using the advantages that the male body gives them to take awards away from females and other activities where they perceived their lie about being women brought them an advantage, the rot set in.

Well said Mollygo.

Macadia

Why do women have to undress together in one room? They dont use the loo together at home. Why can't sex classifications be removed from such private spaces and just have changing rooms for humans - solo.

I would never dare send a young boy into a mens room out of fear. Little boys can whiz in the ladies room... but wait !?!

Oh my, can you imagine students learning about these awkward times ,hundred years later, in a history lesson? What a bright lot we will seem.

Macadia, I have said this on more than one previous thread on this subject: our swimming pool changing room is for both sexes and all ages. There are cubicles to change in and swimwear must be worn in the showers. Apart from the occasional toddler, nobody is publicly naked. It works, families remain together and nobody cares or notices what sex others are or say they are.

It is fine to have some mixed sex facilities (although studies gave shown the risk to women us higher in those changing rooms) but it is important to also have single sex spaces. When we talk about single sex spaces we include prisons, sport, etc, etc.

And that works fine at your pool Wheniwasyourage but what about pools and other places that still have communal changing and showering facilities that are designated male and female? What are your views on transwomen entering women's sports, prisons, hospital wards, women only groups e.g those for lesbians etc. It is so much more than just toilets and changing rooms.

Wheniwasyourage
nobody cares or notices what sex others are or say they are.
And you know this how?

Our local council run baths had whirlpools, slides, waves so very attractive for families with children. It also had changing rooms for all sexes and ages. It became clear it was attracting peadophiles. Perfect hunting ground for them and exciting. Cameras were found, children were frightened, prosecutions followed. It closed

Wheniwasyourage

Macadia

Why do women have to undress together in one room? They dont use the loo together at home. Why can't sex classifications be removed from such private spaces and just have changing rooms for humans - solo.

I would never dare send a young boy into a mens room out of fear. Little boys can whiz in the ladies room... but wait !?!

Oh my, can you imagine students learning about these awkward times ,hundred years later, in a history lesson? What a bright lot we will seem.

Macadia, I have said this on more than one previous thread on this subject: our swimming pool changing room is for both sexes and all ages. There are cubicles to change in and swimwear must be worn in the showers. Apart from the occasional toddler, nobody is publicly naked. It works, families remain together and nobody cares or notices what sex others are or say they are.

Some pools are configured with unisex and family changing rooms. From what I remember Center Parks had such facilities. Health Clubs generally have male and female locker rooms and disabled areas. When I say male and female locker rooms, these are usually laid out with adjacent toilet and shower areas. Members, whether male or female, do not expect to be sharing that space with an adult member of the opposite sex and would most certainly care and notice if their privacy wasn't respected. There are often a limited amount of curtained off cubicles so at any time members are in a state undress So you speak for yourself in the scenarios you find yourself when you go to your swimming pool, fair enough that's your prerogative. Don't imagine in a different setting that everyone would share your point of view. I can tell you they wouldn't.

Oh and I would add, that in single sex shower areas, it is not expected to wear swimwear in the shower, that rarely happens. Therefore one emerges with just a towel around themselves, when they come out of the shower, usually to go straight to the spinner machine with swimwear in hand to dry it off.