Trans women and single-sex spaces

You're losing the argument, I haven't made any unsubstantiated claim, the NHS hospital rape is in the public domain, I can't do links, Google it for heaven's sake, Allira has provided pointers up thread. How deep an understanding does one have to have surrounding a case of transwoman rapes woman in hospital and then a year goes by before the NHS will admit that happened.

I am afraid I find the statement living as a woman deeply sexist. What does it mean? dh is at work at the moment, I have just walked the dog, we are both wearing trousers which one of us is living as a woman.

Rosie51 You are correct in noting that I agree some of the so-called evidence in this thread is unproven or misleading. I also acknowledge that this may well undermine your argument.

However, I do not believe this reflects my stance regarding the Times article either way. It is unfortunate that you seem to think that those who support an argument you are attempting to put forward must all lack the ability to think critically. That perspective is quite disheartening.

Nevertheless, if I come to a conclusion about the Times article, I will not let the aggressive tone of some posts directed at me influence my interpretation of the article itself.

Politicsnerd What's not correct Madgran? If I have misinterpreted something it would be more useful if you explained what and how, surely

Your "unravelling" of my post obviously! You asked if it was correct. I told you it wasnt! 🙄

PoliticsNerd Your last two posts to me are just word salad. That you accept "facts" when posted but unsubstantiated by just one poster while interrogating all others is clear for anyone to see. I shan't be engaging with you any more on this thread since I don't believe you are coming from a place of honest intent. Have a nice day!

Okay Madgran77. So why not clarify where and what I misunderstood in your previous post? We are not going to get anywhere with guessing.

Until recently, there were so many ways to live our lives . . .
Lesbian and Homosexuals fought for the right to do that with increasing, but still limited success and the living unnoticed people did just that.

Unfortunately certain TIM and their supporters have made life difficult, bringing the lie that you can change sex to the forefront, by using that lie to cheat, harm, distress, or discriminate against females.
In doing so, they have also made life difficult for the living unnoticed group, who may not have altogether been unnoticed, but who were allowed to live their secret lives because they were doing no harm.

Mollygo 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Mollygo Nicely summed up.

PoliticsNerd

Okay Madgran77. So why not clarify where and what I misunderstood in your previous post? We are not going to get anywhere with guessing.

I said previously that there was no point continuing the discussion as we are never going to agree. My endlessly explaining what I've already said and you appear to be misinterpreting is boring for everyone else and me, and just distracts from the key discussions in this thread. If you search online you will find clear references that might help you. Up to you

It's not your first rodeo is it Madgran

Galaxy

It's not your first rodeo is it Madgran

😅 And I usually know when to jump off the horse and not waste my energy!! 🤣🤣🐎🐎

This takes me back to the 1960's and 70's where feminists fought hard to redefine the previously gender stereotyped ideas of what women could and should be and do.

It was that movement that has allowed us to live out the many ways of being a women as we weren't before. It brought out a strong reaction/opposition from some quarters at the time, where being feminist was equated with hating men. alongside this many of us were trying to reach out to men and men joined questioning the old stereotypes of masculinity.

People are right to accuse extremist trans of threatening these many ways. But I do think there are genuine transpeople who just want to live in "one of these many ways' without having to hide just as gay people used to have to hide.

I see as much danger however from the Andrew Tates of this world to women, and the social media aspects of women hating so eloquently illustrated in the drama "Adolescence".

Just being an idealist that we need to find ways of accepting difference unless it does harm.

Madgran77

PoliticsNerd

Okay Madgran77. So why not clarify where and what I misunderstood in your previous post? We are not going to get anywhere with guessing.

I said previously that there was no point continuing the discussion as we are never going to agree. My endlessly explaining what I've already said and you appear to be misinterpreting is boring for everyone else and me, and just distracts from the key discussions in this thread. If you search online you will find clear references that might help you. Up to you

Nowhere have you clarified what you are talking about. You talk about someone called "Rose" as if everyone must know what you refer to. You talk about how something happen as if it's been proved. Where? What stops you explaining? By this stage I am bound to believe it has been made up or exaggerated - so keen are you not to explain the origins of your story.

On this thread I have seen the de-humanising of people who chose to call themselves trans. I have seen over-simplified stories which cannot be referenced. On here some are not arguing for or against anything. They just seem to be fighting to be right, whether they are or not. The triumphant Americanism of it not being "your first rodeo" tells me all I need to know about this style of so called "discussion".

Yes Wyllow3 back in the 60's I can think of many things that women were excluded from. Now when I look around I can see many things that men are excluded from but very few that exclude women. Maybe men should only be excluded from things like toilets and changing rooms.

What stops you explaining?
What stops you using google?
You are engaging in a discussion, not reading an annotated essay.
Up to you to fill in the gaps.

eazybee

^What stops you explaining?^
What stops you using google?
You are engaging in a discussion, not reading an annotated essay.
Up to you to fill in the gaps.

Thankyou eazybee 🙂

Ha ha. I am from the North east of England PN, its a common phrase around our way. But again this is a tactic of distraction.
So to clarify my position, all tranawomen are men, whether they are lovely people is irrelevant, they have no place in women's spaces. Whatever men do to their body, whatever certificate they do or don't hold is of no interest to me.

I think that is an interesting discussion Jackie's, I actually think it is important for males to have groups for themselves, so for example mens health groups, etc.

Sorry my autocorrect is being irritating, that should say Jackiest.

Galaxy

I think that is an interesting discussion Jackie's, I actually think it is important for males to have groups for themselves, so for example mens health groups, etc.

Yes health groups which discuss things that are personal to men and women should be segregated to save embarrassment. I am not against all segregation but there should always be a good reason for it. Just as we objected back in the 60's at being excluded from activities for no good reason I think men also object but being men they can not say so. A few lash out and demand access to everything. I think that if they were only excluded where it was obviously correct to do so there would not be such a problem and there would be a lot more empathy between men and women.

Galaxy

I think that is an interesting discussion Jackie's, I actually think it is important for males to have groups for themselves, so for example mens health groups, etc.

I agree.

Madgran77

eazybee

What stops you explaining?
What stops you using google?
You are engaging in a discussion, not reading an annotated essay.
Up to you to fill in the gaps.

Thankyou eazybee 🙂

Even if someone attempts to fill in any gaps with facts, they are seemingly ignored.

Galaxy

I think that is an interesting discussion Jackie's, I actually think it is important for males to have groups for themselves, so for example mens health groups, etc.

I would add that it could be really dangerous for a man with a medical problem to keep insisting on presenting himself as a woman to medical staff.

Galaxy

I am afraid I find the statement living as a woman deeply sexist. What does it mean? dh is at work at the moment, I have just walked the dog, we are both wearing trousers which one of us is living as a woman.

🤣 That is a good question Galaxy

I also find it sexist. It appears from nybobservations and reading that "living as a woman" links to society expectations/assumptions about how women live/should live.

In your example trousers are now accepted "suitable" wear for women whereas skirts/dresses are not so accepted for men in our society (different in other cultures)