Will the Supreme Court protect Women's Rights?

I would never use a female pronoun to describe a man. It is part of why we ended up where we are.

Oreo

What sort of work do you do with trans people Luminance?
I don’t think anyone on this forum wishes them any harm and would respect a name or pronoun if introduced to a trans person.It’s all the other stuff we’re not so keen on.

I'm a nurse in mental health. I won't say where if you don't mind. I have however dealt with patients who have been attacked, harassed and intimidated, women and trans women in differing circumstances. I suppose that would be why I respect the needs of both. Both have often experienced violence. I suppose that makes me look at the problem rather differently, perpetrator and victim. Entire groups of people do not come into it. I would not expect a man to publicly condemn another man for violence, I would simply hope he would stand against it were he witness and it was safe to do so. Often women's children feel they are responsible for the behaviour of another parent, that they didn't do enough. They are not and must be helped to understand that.

I think if I met a transwoman in a group setting say, and they introduced themselves to me as Lucy, say, then I would go along with that and even refer if I had to, to ‘her’.We would all know the truth of course.If I met a transman in the same setting who said he was called Ken then I would do the same.
Probably tho, apart from saying hello I wouldn’t need to say anything more, but if need arose then I would do.

Thanks for your explanation Luminance

I think most non-trans people are ready to condemn other non-trans people who bully and harass trans people for merely the fact of being trans, without the Trans person committing any crimes. In some countries, and in some demographics in the UK, the proportion varies, but there are voices who are ready to speak up against unfairness,

However, if none of the quiet trans people make their voices heard in condemning some of the bad behaviour, attitude and violence of the more aggressive trans activists, they are not doing anything to counter the impression that all trans people hate females and have no tolerance of any different tradition by anyone else that goes counter to their own convictions.

I can understand them staying below the radar, but maybe they are being too quiet, and allowing those with the loudest voices to set the standard profile?

To be fair the gender critical trans identifying men were called everything under the sun by the activists.

Do you believe that yourself? That "all trans people hate females" is a valid impression that could be undone were every trans person state otherwise? How do you or I know they aren't? Where would this required platform to do so in a way we could perhaps take a tally be? I simply do not understand how this would work.

Sorry that removed the quote function. That comment was to Elegran to avoid confusion.

I don't believe it, Luminance , any more than I (or you, I am sure) believe that all non-trans people harass trans ones and discriminate against them, but I am not everyone on this planet. There are many individuals who believe that what they see in the media is true. That is very obvious when you read what is posted by those who voted Trump into power and still cannot see how the reputation of the US is being destroyed as a result.

We get our view of the world by what we see of it. If those who speak for the trans community on the internet and appear in news items are mostly those who display hatred and aggression, then those who see and read it gain that picture of them. If the blogs and comments, and the videos of events, were more of peaceful trans people who detested the violence and the hatred of some of those who claim to represent them, and said so , it would begin to counteract the divisiveness that has been fostered by Stonewall, who treated the rise of transition as a war to be won, not as positive co-operation to be built up.

That goes against the instinct of mild personalities to stay below the parapet, but that was true of the struggles of feminists. It would have been easier for women to keep a low profile, but they persevered in going after legal, medical, literary and social advances for women. Today they would have been filling the internet with subtle persuasion - advertising, not war, is the key in a world of global communications.

Excellent post Elegran.

I do apologise Elegran but I cannot see the logic in that. My experience of this discussion so far is that advocating for peoples protection and safety and calling out harassment and discrimination did not keep me safe it rather put me in the firing line. I believe it was Galaxy who also acknowledged that trans people supporting women in a public way leading up to this ruling were also in the firing line of women they tried to uphold. Perhaps those who do in fact discriminate beyond the ruling whether driven by fear or something else are the ones who should be called into account on both sides rather than blaming the innocent who are also victims?

Are you claiming to have been unsafe and put in the firing line here on this thread Luminance? If so, you need to give specific examples because all I've seen are posters disagreeing with you, especially when your posts imply that others here are not concerned about the harassment, discrimination, protection and safety of the trans community.

I have no idea whether all trans people hate females and I don't much care; what I do care about is that the tacit permission for aggression and intolerance towards those who do not share trans beliefs has at last been challenged and removed. No longer will people face the possibility of losing their jobs because a very aggressive minority have been allowed to persecute people who have refused to follow their dictats. As for apologies, there should be restitution and compensation for teachers, lecturers, journalists, nurses and members of the public who have been hounded out of their jobs because they have steadfastly stated the truth: a person cannot change sex however much they wish to.

I have implied nothing, simply asked questions for clarity and understanding. Whether comments aimed at myself felt attacking to me is not yours to judge Smileless but perhaps we can continue as we are now things feel on a more friendly footing with more recent replies?

Hopefully there will be eazybee because anyone whose lost their job or faced disciplinary action deserves an apology, restitution and compensation.

What it seems to me is that women would prefer that trans people assimilate into society without asking for the rights women have fought for and won. So therefore it seems logical to allow that to happen by not dragging people already doing so into it or expecting them to join some group soapbox I still haven't ascertained the location of. It would seem to me that trans women are already upholding women's rights by not entering these areas in the first place.

I suggest you read the second sentence in your post @ 16.16 Luminance. Claiming or suggesting that you have felt unsafe and been put in the firing line while participating in this discussion does not create a friendly footing and is not asking questions for clarity and understanding.

Posts of this nature can make others uncomfortable as no one knows who or what you're referring too.

I'm confused by that last sentence. It is precisely because some - and I stress some - transwomen insisted on trampling all over women's rights by invading single sex places in the first place that we have arrived at this situation.
How did we arrive at a place where, if a man exposed himself to a woman on the street, he could be arrested - but if he walked into a woman's changing room in a gym, say, and did the same, but claimed he was a woman, that would be ok? Would you be happy if he did that in front of your daughter, for instance?

Smileless2012 Again, you are not in charge of what is deemed personal or how I feel about and I see no point discussing that with you.

Me too ViceVersa, if all trans women are already upholding women's rights by not entering these areas in the first place yesterday's ruling wouldn't have been needed.

ViceVersa

I'm confused by that last sentence. It is precisely because some - and I stress some - transwomen insisted on trampling all over women's rights by invading single sex places in the first place that we have arrived at this situation.
How did we arrive at a place where, if a man exposed himself to a woman on the street, he could be arrested - but if he walked into a woman's changing room in a gym, say, and did the same, but claimed he was a woman, that would be ok? Would you be happy if he did that in front of your daughter, for instance?

To stay relevant in answering this question for myself as I assume it is general. I have agreed with the ruling and I do not have a daughter.

Luminance

ViceVersa

I'm confused by that last sentence. It is precisely because some - and I stress some - transwomen insisted on trampling all over women's rights by invading single sex places in the first place that we have arrived at this situation.
How did we arrive at a place where, if a man exposed himself to a woman on the street, he could be arrested - but if he walked into a woman's changing room in a gym, say, and did the same, but claimed he was a woman, that would be ok? Would you be happy if he did that in front of your daughter, for instance?

To stay relevant in answering this question for myself as I assume it is general. I have agreed with the ruling and I do not have a daughter.

I was speaking hypothetically. Even if you do not have a daughter yourself, would you be happy with that situation?

What we must understand is that some people are terrible. In every walk of life. There are fellow women out there that I have met who are racist, homophobic and showing it. Would I condemn them? Yes of course! Would I stand against them if they were bullying or harassing someone in public? Yes if it were safe to do so. I would at least report it. Would I go on some sort of very public platform to condemn them? No of course I wouldn't, I would likely make myself a target as myself in my real life where I do not discriminate. It is enough that here in discussion with all of you that I fully condemn those women.

ViceVersa Is my answer that I agree to the court ruling not enough? How did you interpret it?

Luminance

ViceVersa Is my answer that I agree to the court ruling not enough? How did you interpret it?

No, it wasn't clear, because you then went on to say "It would seem to me that trans women are already upholding women's rights by not entering these areas in the first place." If that had been true, then we would never have needed this case to go to the Supreme Court to clarify the situation.