Will the Supreme Court protect Women's Rights?

Smileless2012

I suggest you read the second sentence in your post @ 16.16 Luminance. Claiming or suggesting that you have felt unsafe and been put in the firing line while participating in this discussion does not create a friendly footing and is not asking questions for clarity and understanding.

Posts of this nature can make others uncomfortable as no one knows who or what you're referring too.

This often happens in these discussions - it's the Some People thing, isn't it?

Spot on, ViceVersa at 16:50:34. I can't help thinking that anyone who 'felt' he is a woman would be able to empathise with women who don't want to have men around when they are vulnerable. It's not about apartheid - it is only in limited situations when it matters.

I see that the Transport Police have been warned about transwomen strip-searching female detainees, for instance. I can't think of many situations where that might be necessary, but it must be easy enough for what I assume to be a small number of officers who have transitioned to avoid doing so. It shouldn't have needed today's ruling to force the issue.

There will no doubt be other similar situations, surrounding areas such as rape counselling and examination suites - again, it would have been much better if transwomen had shown empathy and not put women into a situation where they were being examined by a male after being raped. There are so many career options that don't involve compromising women's dignity, safety and mental health, so it seems perverse that transwomen go into areas where they will be called upon to do so.

What I would like to see is a push to make transpeople of both sexes (but particularly transwomen) accepted by members of their own sex, so that they can safely use facilities intended for them, rather than feeling that they have to pretend that they are female. It could become no more odd than someone using a staff loo when others use the public one, or people joining different queues in an airport depending on which passport they hold. Or my husband using one changing room and me another, for that matter. The rest of the time, everyone is just a person, and a difference is made only when it matters.

My concern, however, is that this won't give many transwomen what they want, which is power over women and the right to force us into compliance with their wish to be treated as though they are, in fact, female.

ViceVersa that was in regard to the trans people I have been saying need not condemn anything publically for the last few pages now. Thank you for explaining however.

eazybee

I have no idea whether all trans people hate females and I don't much care; what I do care about is that the tacit permission for aggression and intolerance towards those who do not share trans beliefs has at last been challenged and removed. No longer will people face the possibility of losing their jobs because a very aggressive minority have been allowed to persecute people who have refused to follow their dictats. As for apologies, there should be restitution and compensation for teachers, lecturers, journalists, nurses and members of the public who have been hounded out of their jobs because they have steadfastly stated the truth: a person cannot change sex however much they wish to.

Definitely eazybee. What you say in your post is very important.

As far as I’m aware, no one has said all trans hate females. I’m not even sure if any trans hate females, though the actions of some and their TRA supporters, certainly gives the impression of hatred.

Rather, they coveted what females have and want it for themselves.
E.g. TW who want to be accepted by Lesbians, ignoring the fact that lesbians prefer females for their sexual lives.
TW who want to be put in female prisons, even when they’re convicted of rape.
TW and TRA who have caused females to lose their jobs or be arrested for
stating the truth, that TIM are not female.

Is it absurd to hope that ensuring the correct boundaries are in place will improve relationships between women and trans women overall?

I don't think you will be happy with anything that anyone says, Luminance, because what you are asking is that posters denounce the lack of rights for trans people, yet you don't specify which rights. If you would look at the evidence of the rights which they have, and list those which they don't have, you might get an answer that means something to you.

As it is, you tell us that you deal with traumatised patients. Those traumas are physical or mental/emotional. Physically injuring someone is illegal. Trans people have the same right not to be physically injured as non-trans, and anyone injuring them is liable to be arrested and charged with an offence.

Mental or emotional traumas are a more elusive injury. There is legislation (I assume you are in the UK.) about this kind of injury. www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/your-rights-under-equality-act-2010/gender-reassignment-discrimination

Legislation only changes the law and gives legal rights. It doesn't change people's opinions and prejudices. Those are altered by reflecting on the universality of the human experience and vulnerability, by observing the people about whom someone is prejudiced, and towards whom they feel antipathy, (for whatever reason - cultural or religious, from fear or suspicion of the "other" or whatever) and realising that they are not a threat. That takes time and contact.

Being harangued to stop harassing them doesn't have the same effect as actually meeting them in a neutral situation and knowing that you don't need to defend yourself against them.

It takes time for a culture to change and accept what was once taboo, or to accept that what they once regarded as normal is now taboo. Child marriage, for example - daughters of powerful kings and emperors were once married very young to grizzled old men, to cement alliances and provide heirs. Or women doctors - female medical students were not allowed to sit in lectures, and had to listen from outside in a corridor, and not given a diploma however well they passed their exams. It took time and persistence to change attitudes in both these examples, and those changing minds and mores had to work hard and suffer a lot to achieve what we now take for granted.

My logic, which you did not agree with, was that the people who can change the attitude of Joe Public are mostly trans people themselves. If the people they work beside know that they are just like anyone else, and likewise the people the meet when they are not working, at church, in shops and cafes, in knitting groups and schools, on social media sites like Gransnet, in the crowd at a football match, then they will have been an ambassador for trans normalness. It is what women in public life had to do, and suffer for, and they still are not totally equal in what is still a man's world.

They need a "marketing campaign" - but not one like Stonewall's, which ended up alienating more people than they converted. That is where more internet presence by those trans who don't agree with how TRA's have behaved could counter that alienation. That is what Mollygo was suggesting. They don't even need to actively condemn, just be actively different in their approach from those bullies, but their testimony is needed, just as the testimony and example of women was needed to get acceptance in male-dominated circles.

No, I have not asked for posters to denounce any lack of rights for trans people. I do appreciate that rather a lot of thought went into that Elegran but it's not relevant to anything I have said, actually entirely the opposite. I am rather unsure how that would happen.

Thanks Elegran. A good post which makes very valid points.

What it seems to me is that women would prefer that trans people assimilate into society without asking for the rights women have fought for and won.

Of course transwomen cannot ask to share the rights women have fought for; they are not entitled to them because
They Are Not Women, They Are Men.

What is it that you would like to hear, Luminance? I don't understand what you are concerned about, or what would make you less concerned.

What are these lack of rights for trans people Luminance?

In the numerous discussions we've had on GN about this issue the supposed lack of rights for trans people is always mentioned but no one has ever said what they are.

Trans women cannot and should not expect to have any rights that impinge on or take away women's rights.

What I would like to see is a push to make trans people of both sexes (but mostly transwomen) accepted by members of their own sex.... this is what's needed Doodledog then trans women in particular could use without fear, the facilities designated for men and it ceases to be a problem for women to solve on their own.

You probably won't want to hear this Luminance but Elegran's post rang so true and is how I have perceived your posts. Perhaps you could try to enlighten us as to what you do want?

"I am rather unsure how that would happen." It will happen the same way as all other social changes have happened - slowly and by osmosis, and it will be painful for many people until it is assimilated and the controversies settle into a compromise which becomes the norm.

It may sound outrageous but I would like people to respond to what is written. It is very hard to understand how anything could be achieved by dissembling over what another says. An honest, sincere person does not do that.

And it will only happen if the unrealistic and unacceptable demands of TRA's are put aside.

you need to be specific Luminance. Who isn't responding to what's been written and who is not being honest and sincere?

Luminance
I would like people to respond to what is written.

Doodledog

What is it that you would like to hear, Luminance? I don't understand what you are concerned about, or what would make you less concerned.

Smileless2012

What are these lack of rights for trans people Luminance?

Maybe you could lead the way Luminance, and respond to what is written by these and other posters.

Luminance

Is it absurd to hope that ensuring the correct boundaries are in place will improve relationships between women and trans women overall?

This is my only question or curiosity here and I have run out of ways to word it You can choose to pick apart the wording or dissemble further but this is all I would hope for and I will read with great interest those who do answer with honesty and sincerity.

Luminance

Is it absurd to hope that ensuring the correct boundaries are in place will improve relationships between women and trans women overall?

Good fences make good neighbours, so if people on each side of the fences can see that their neighbours will not encroach over their boundaries, it may be that they can be good friends as well as neighbours.

Elegran

Good fences make good neighbours, so if people on each side of the fences can see that their neighbours will not encroach over their boundaries, it may be that they can be good friends as well as neighbours.

You said it Elegran.
We will have to wait and see how that materialises.

Luminance

Is it absurd to hope that ensuring the correct boundaries are in place will improve relationships between women and trans women overall?

I suppose that depends on whether everyone can agree what the correct boundaries are.

Please stop making vague references to a lack of honesty and sincerity Luminance, it makes the thread unnecessarily unpleasant.

I don't know what relationships I would have with trans identifying men other than on an individual basis.

All women have wanted for ages is that the correct boundaries be put in place.

Time will tell whether the boundaries that end up in place are indeed correct, though. Far too often, it was the Ladies loos that (as well as doubling as the Disabled loo and the baby-chasing one) was designated 'gender-neutral', so men could use the Ladies as well as the Gents, and women had nowhere to call our own. That was not, IMO, the 'correct' boundary.

If transpeople adhere to the spirit of the ruling, and use the facilities designed for their biological sex, not their psychological 'gender' then yes, I see no reason why relationships should not improve. Personally, I have never had a bad relationship with a transwoman in the first place. I just want women and girls to feel safe, to have dignity and privacy, and for statistics to properly represent trends in society and health concerns that affect the sexes differently. I would also like to see female shortlists being for women, and for sport to be fair.

baby-changing, not chasing! Where dos autocarrot get its ideas from?

It’s being suggested trans use loos for the disabled. Private and signage will be altered to indicate their new usage.