Israel to "conquer" Gaza

Silver lining, I’ve seen these concerns expressed in print, news and phone ins. I read about statements made by Israeli conscripts that they reported concerns about activity in the weeks before 7/10. Their reported view was they were not taken seriously because they were young and female.

The conspiracy theorists allege Netenyahu was informed but it suited him and his right wing to let the atrocity take place.

I can’t pretend to know enough to reach conclusions. I feel uncomfortable even considering these allegations

silverlining48

How was it that Israeli conscripts whose job was to spot any activity, reported unusual activity in the area over the weeks before 7 October 2023. The Hamas preparations must have been fairly obvious yet reports of this unexpected activity appear to have been ignored,

Why did it take 7 or 8 hours before Israeli soldiers eventually arrived on the scene on the 7 October 2023. Given it was a border area covered by checkpoints, the army wasn’t far. There would have been many calls for help from dawn onwards, when it all began. Why did it take so long fir the Israeli army to get to the scene.

Just Curious 🤔

You have been curious many times in the last year on this subject I notice silverlining48 but wallowing in conspiracy theories doesn’t help anyone, it never does.In any case it isn’t the subject under discussion on this thread and is always used as a stick to beat Israel with from Palestinian supporters.You have to keep in mind what started this conflict in 2023 and who started it with their actions, and it wasn’t the Israelis.

Do people realise that Gaza was called the biggest open air prison in the world?
They have never had control or free movement and were tightly controlled by the Israeli army at the checkpoints.
Imagine over 2 million people squeezed into an area similar in size to the Isle of Wight. I woukdnt like it, who would. ?

Is that why so many Gazans say they love their country and had a nice home and life before this war?

Oreo I am touched that you notice my posts, but I am not wallowing, it’s healthy to question something odd and nothing wrong with being curious.

I have had an active interest in this sad story for over 30 years, so feel as qualified as anyone else to have an opinion and pose a question.

I noticed as you brought it up several times, that’s all.

World central kitchen closed in Gaza as it has run out of supplies.

Unless something is now done, there will be starvation in Gaza. There is already a lot of evidence of hunger - poor nutrition etc. This takes it to another level.

It is something like 63 days since Israel stopped food, water, fuel etc.

A war crime.

silverlining48

Do people realise that Gaza was called the biggest open air prison in the world?
They have never had control or free movement and were tightly controlled by the Israeli army at the checkpoints.
Imagine over 2 million people squeezed into an area similar in size to the Isle of Wight. I woukdnt like it, who would. ?

Gaza was under a strict blockade from 2005/6.

Oxfam describes it well here in 2018
www.oxfam.org/en/timeline-humanitarian-impact-gaza-blockade

The history after the second intifada is why I think armed conflict was eventually inevitable. No one can ever excuse the actions on October 7th, but you can understand why they happened.

Maybe you can Wyllow3 as I can’t understand the vile cruel murders of babies, children, whole families, the torture and rapes that went alongside it, no, I can never understand that.
Gaza was governed by hamas and it wasn’t grievances against Israel that caused hamas and supporters to commit those crimes it was blind hatred of all Jews and the opportunity to spread their own kind of hate, because that’s what they are, terrorists and crazy extremists.

I don't "wallow in conspiracy theories" but I do read a range of media including that in Israel. There are many Israeli Jews who are asking the same questions posed by Silverlining48 and I have also raised these questions. I have also posted links to Netanyahu speaking of allowing Hamas to gain strength as a counter balance to the PA. I don't know if the Israeli govt was complicit in enabling Hamas to commit atrocities but I do know that IDF spotters saw and reported training activities by Hamas that were ignored, the festival was moved at short notice nearer to the border with Gaza and IDF soldiers took a very very long time to arrive despite many victims of the horrible events of 7/10 making contact. Make of that what you will, but don't assume that there was nothing contrived until there is evidence to support that view.

No one can ever excuse the actions on October 7th, but you can understand why they happened.

Nothing like a bit of victim blaming to stir things up a bit, eh?

"Where there is oppression there will be resistance". Gazans have been oppressed for many years and so Hamas came into being.
I don't believe the attack had anything to do with religion it was about hitting back at what they believe are oppressors.
Hamas call themselves freedom fighters where we call them terrorists. It has been a hotbed of tension which was bound to boil over at some point.

Understand the horrors of 7th October 2023, locking people in
a room and setting fire to it, smashing babies against walls, taking babies from their cribs and abusing them, taking a young mother and her two small children hostage, them strangling the little ones.

Your understanding explains much Wyllow

IDF spotters may well have been ignored, as a level of complacency could have set in amongst the military, they were so used to being attacked.A big mistake on their part obviously.
The Nova music festival was moved to a quieter area so as not to cause a nuisance.
The IDF did take too long to arrive as they didn’t know the extent of the incursion, another mistake.
BN no doubt did want the power of hamas at one time to counterbalance the PA.
I don’t believe for one second the claims of conspiracy theories.
Israelis are entitled to an inquiry as to why the military were slow and inept, I would agree with that.

Iam64

Silver lining, I’ve seen these concerns expressed in print, news and phone ins. I read about statements made by Israeli conscripts that they reported concerns about activity in the weeks before 7/10. Their reported view was they were not taken seriously because they were young and female.

The conspiracy theorists allege Netenyahu was informed but it suited him and his right wing to let the atrocity take place.

I can’t pretend to know enough to reach conclusions. I feel uncomfortable even considering these allegations

And Netanyahu will only be in power while this war continues. It’s never been in his best interest to stop it. This is one of the things that makes me more inclined to believe the conspiracy theories. He’s a bad man and many Israelis know that.

Let me make it clear that I do not in anyway condone the horrors you describe on October 7th. Nothing I have ever said condones the nature of those events, ever. No "understanding" justifies that.

As if I would condone those rapes and murders of innocents.

I was referring to understanding the long term historical situation where a long build up led to an attack on Israel and re-opening of open war between Israel and Gaza.

The only way to understand Oct 7th is to look at Hamas's religious views.

You are right Wyllow3. I was conscious I could be straying a bit from the thread earlier. But to understand the situation one needs to understand their religious views. It has nothing to do with how badly the people of Gaza have been treated or land. In fact if the amount of money given to Gaza had been used properly they would be living in paradise. It just seems that many people have forgotten or can't understand that this war is a religious/ideological war. Where one side, Hamas and many of the people in Gaza, wants to destroy Isreal on religious grounds and the other side, despite what some people think want to live in peace. No matter what the outcome of this present battle is, the situation will continue as it is, because a certain group of people love death more than others love life. They do not hide it, they chant it.

I’ve just watched Settlers, the Louis Theroux documentary. Chilling stuff

I started watching it, but stopped. Another BBC corruption of the situation. As soon as it was said over 40,000 (Hamas reported death toll figures) had died in Gaza I knew what it would be like. It is not too difficult with editing and presenting a narrative that suits the agenda of the BBC to broadcast a distorted one sided story.

Same for me phil , it was only 27th February BBC apologised
for their documentary ‘Gaza how to survive a War Zone’ said it
had significant and damaging mistakes’, a couple of months
later they produced ‘Settlers’ , it was biased

I haven't watched it yet but will. However, I've heard settlers being interviewed and their behaviour is reported both in the International press and also by the Israeli press. Many Israeli Jews find their behaviour and beliefs beyond the pale so I doubt that I shall be surprised by anything I hear.
LT made a documentary in 2011 on the Ultra Nationalists in the West Bank so this is not new territory for him. In the 2011 these people were completely open about the tactics they used against Palestinians I doubt they have changed.

I have watched and read over the years how the more radical settlers in Israel have behaved , so although I haven’t watched the television programme yet. I suspect there will be nothing of surprise in there.

I would also like to recommend “The Lemon Tree” written by Sandy Tolan.

It is a non-fiction book, which describes the lives of two families - one Jewish and one Arab - and their history in the same land. It is centred in Al-Ramla or Ramla. The narrative is told from two perspectives, so “objective truth” cannot apply. For example one single event is described as “the day of independence” by one family “the catastrophe” by another. One of hope and one of despair.

And so it continues.

Thanks, WWM2 I'll source the book.
I think it's probably fair to say LT's documentary is biased if it is focusing on Settlers. They are only one group within Israeli society but they are an important group as ATM they are the tail wagging the Netanyahu govt dog, so to speak. It is Ben-Gvr and Smotrich who are keeping him in power and as such are in the driving seat of how this horrible war in Gaza is being conducted and they are backed by the settlers. The Ultra orthodox settlers, however, are a growing group within Israel so I think it's very important to understand who these people are and how they think because they are possibly going to hold increasing power and influence in Israel in the future.

The points made by foxie48 are those that influenced me to watch Settlers. I’ve read about many American ultra orthodox settlers who are increasing in numbers as well as in their determination to rid Gaza of Palestinians.
They share the belief that they have a god given right to the land and that “the arabs” have none. Their disgusting bigoted views about Arab people are so deeply held and their influence on Netenyahu so great, peace seems a dream

These extremist settlers represent such a small percentage of Israelis and yet their views hold the government by the throat. Netanyahu has sold his soul to them, for his own reasons.

Israel badly needs an election.