Denmark and immigration

I had a walk in the park last week and there was a whole class of children there I'm guessing because they were from a school without any playing fields. It was nearly all children from our Muslim community and they were playing mixed cricket together. Most girls either weren't wearing or had taken off their headscarves.

How powerful this simple situation can be for onlookers and participants (one friendly dog wanted to play and a girl asked the owner if they could jump through a hula hoop....).....

I never really know what to think with this one. On the one hand I believe that women should wear what they want but on the other, is it really a choice when there is so much obligation growing up that it is "normalised"?

If I were to visit a culture where the norm was to wear a headscarf, that is probably what I would do. So is it then fair to say, if you visit a culture where that is seen as oppressive... You don't wear one?

I think integrating fully is a good idea but culture and religion do cross over in places. Perhaps like other religions it needs to change to fit the situation but is it then discriminatory to tell someone their values and ways of life are unacceptable?

Whatever happens, women and girls need to be taught that freedom to choose and be protected where needed.

Interesting to read your post, and I do not doubt that the information you quote is what you actually heard on the programme you refer to, but it is not quite accurate.

Muslim women and girls may wear a head-scarf or full hijab in public if they want.

What lawgivers are seeking to stop, is small girls from the age of six being forced to go to ordinary council or private schools wearing headscarves.

As a teacher, I am not happy about this prohibition, as I would honestly rather see all immigrant children in the state schools, or in private schools that accede to the same norms, than shut away in private fundamentalistic Muslim schools, as many although not all of them, do not comply with the Government white papers on education.

What Muslim girls and women may not do, is to present themselves for oral or written exams completely covered by a burqua and face veil, and just try to prove their identity by waving their passport or national health card at the examiner.

One woman in a burqua with the lower half of her face covered or masked looks very like another, and we need to be sure that we are examining the candidate whose name in on our list, rather than her sister, cousin or class-mate who feels more certain of passing the exam.

Danish citizens, and foreigners living here may not be masked in public -this was brought in years ago following some terrorist attacks. A bus driver or train ticket controller has the right to deny a masked person entry to the vehicle.

No physician or surgeon will be willing to treat a woman who refuses to let her face be seen as proof of her identity.

The so-called ghetto question, is partly a matter of slum clearance, partly a matter of wishing a more even distrubution of members of different ethnic groups, in the various houseing schemes and partly an attempt to stop the growing number of teenagers , both children of immigrants and children of people whose ancestors have lived in Denmark since the Stone Age, from adopting the "gang culture" they have learned is "smart" from watching certain kinds of American films.

Most immigrants, irrespective of where they come from, are decent, hard-working people, who while retaining their religious affiliations and most of the customs of their country of origin do so within the confines of the law of this country, by for instance burying their dead in coffins, as it is illegal here simply to place a shrouded corpse in the grave.

Unfortunately, there are some immigrants who do not seem either to respect our democracy or wish to learn our language, or integrate themselves. Whether it is possible to completely solve these problems or not, is hard to say.

On the bright side, some years ago, we experienced neo-Nazis defacing Jewish headstones in our cemetaries on or around November 9th. Since then, Jewish sections of the cemetaries in Copenhagen are patrolled by groups of young Jewish and Muslim men as well as by our police at the start of November. The initiative to this group was taken by the religious leaders of Copenhagen's mosques and the Chief Rabbi.

In case you are wondering 9th November 1938 has gone down in history as Die Kristalnacht.

The three episodes were all most interesting, particularly the one about Finland. I particularly found it surprising and amazing that the whole population have so mush pride and responsibility for their nation. With the threat of Russia so close, the whole community is involved in the military protection of their land, they are far better equipped and trained than the British.

SR always makes very insightful documentaries, he asks the unexpected questions and gets really involved. A very different and far more informative format than the usual. He did a fantastic one about all the ex Russian states which was a real eye opener for me

fancythat

Getting women out of the "ghettos" has always been more about culture I would have thought.
So wont make much difference? If any?

The rules of certain religions wont be changing for women, where ever they are? Unfortunatly?

Else they could have changed by people moving countries. But they dont appear to have. At all?

I am not sure that is right fancythat, I would argue that many immigrant communities have integrated into the broader British culture, while also respecting their own cultural values. In the 19th and 20 the century, the Irish, once despised as much as any 'coloured immigrant' in the 1960s and 70s, many refugees after WW2, the Indian community, Hindus, Sikhs and others, Immigrants from the Carribean. Look at the number of inter racial marriages.

Some communities have not integrated, and the majority of those are the Muslim communities, no matter where they come from, but I think we should not look at them and generalise from them

But religions do change, but retrogressively as well as progressively. I spent a part of my childhood living in Malaya, now Malaysia, a muslim country. This was late 50s/60s and then Muslim women did not cover their faces or hair, or wear, what is now defined as 'modest' clothing. They either wore European style clothing or the traditional sarong kebaya.

Islam is a religion which has regressed into so called 'traditional' forms, that have more to do with men asserting control over women, when it looks as if they might challenge their authority.

The difference between the two historic great religions, Catholic and Islam, is that, however male dominated catolicism was/is. It always had its parallel female hierarchy of orders of nuns, who reached well up the male hierarchy who both took responsibility for educating women and produced outstanding members, like St Teresa whose learning and knowledge was respected and listened to by the then pope. Many priests and bishops were wary of the power some orders of nuns or their leaders had and wouldn't readily get in conflict with them. This female hierarchy is completely missing in Islam.

The problem with ghettos, is that state schools effectively become religious schools, with up to 100% of children coming from the same religious background. I think much more has to be done to make these schools more open to the general national culture, make sure that Islamic community leaders do not have too large a say in how schools are conducted and subjects are taught. Perhaps redrawing catchment areas to make them more inter racial, ensuring that the teaching body is not entirely of the predominant religion

Primrose53

Interesting that Simon Reeves can comment like this but those of us who have been saying the same things for years get called racists on here.

I have spoken on here about there being ghettos in this country where white people dare not go and been told I am talking rubbish.

I have also spoken about many Muslim women being treated as second class citizens and been accused of lying.

I have said that there should be more integration and that anybody who comes here must learn to speak English and not rely on their small children to translate.

I have spoken out many times about forced marriages, FGM and first cousin marriages.

I agree with the Danes.

?? Simon Reeves wasn't "commenting like this". He listened to Swedes and Danish people of all ages and races talking about what life is like there.

butterandjam

Primrose53

Interesting that Simon Reeves can comment like this but those of us who have been saying the same things for years get called racists on here.

I have spoken on here about there being ghettos in this country where white people dare not go and been told I am talking rubbish.

I have also spoken about many Muslim women being treated as second class citizens and been accused of lying.

I have said that there should be more integration and that anybody who comes here must learn to speak English and not rely on their small children to translate.

I have spoken out many times about forced marriages, FGM and first cousin marriages.

I agree with the Danes.

?? Simon Reeves wasn't "commenting like this". He listened to Swedes and Danish people of all ages and races talking about what life is like there.

I know that. i worded it badly.