Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

MayBee70

To be fair one of my doctors told me that many doctors have to take early retirement because of stress. Having said that, much as I supported the doctors last year and felt that a case could be made for the pay rise they had I’m angry with them this time given that everyone is struggling financially.

Me too. Supported them last year & that pay rise was essential. But it was a hefty one, way above inflation, & they must be relatively better off.
I would support gentle increases to re-adjust the many years where their wages fell further & further behind doctors abroad, and equivalent positions here that are irreplaceable until 5-9 years' training has been done.
What they're asking for in the current climate makes me angry. & more strikes will harm the government & Labour are their best chance of getting a fair wage for their worth.

icanhandthemback

growstuff

www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay

My son's student loan gives me some of the information and a Google search. You have to ask specific questions to get the answers for when things are charged and credited although I knew that from my first born's student loan but I just wanted to check it was the same with Plan 2, the last son's loan.

I was wondering which plan it is because none of the actual figures match.

My son has a massive student loan. Some of it is a postgraduate loan, which has a different system. His repayments don't cover the interest charges, so it increases every year. However, none of the figures correspond to the ones you quoted. I'm curious more than anything.

Google says teach first pays up to £30k a year, don't teach a full timetable. Doesn't sound bad. First year doctor on just over £32k doing 48 hrs and with shorter holiday and 2 or 3 years more at uni.

The point I'm making is that my son isn't even paying back the original loan. All his payments go on interest, so he's resigned to paying a "graduate" tax for most of his working life, when the original capital loan will be written off. In his case, if interest payments were to be abolished, he might stand a chance of paying it all back and, eventually, being free of the loan. I'm not sure how he'd feel about doctors' being treated differently.

But doctors are treated differently to him in various ways, length of training, no salary in year 4 or 5, different working conditions (two of mine are teachers and have never had to work nights or , Christmas day for example). Why should one difference be more important than all the others.

theworriedwell

But doctors are treated differently to him in various ways, length of training, no salary in year 4 or 5, different working conditions (two of mine are teachers and have never had to work nights or , Christmas day for example). Why should one difference be more important than all the others.

As a former teacher, I'm envious of teachers who don't work through the night and at weekends to get through the work - I often did.

Anyway, that's not the point really. I see this suggestion as a perk to put more in doctors' pockets without actually increasing their pay and simultaneously keeping them in the NHS - there are certain merits - but there always unforeseen consequences, such as how other graduates would view it.

Many doctors retire early because they can afford to.
The employer contribution to their pension is 23%. Imagine the size of their pension pots! I’ve never heard of anyone receiving this size of employer contribution in the private sector
It was suggested on the radio that the government could reduce this to maybe 19%(still huge) and use this money to increase their salaries now. No extra funding would need to be found. I think it’s a great idea

I generally always support strikers because I believe that they would not strike without good cause. And I supported the so-called "junior" doctors during their last action.

However, I cannot support their current intention to strike again. They were offered 22% last year -far more than most other worthy workers, like nurses. I understand that they are still not receiving a proper salary and that they are under considerable pressure. But I think to now ask for 29% is totally wrong. Labour negotiated a decent rise with them last year - something which the Conservatives would not do - and now it feels like they are taking unfair advantage of a government that did their best to treat them properly, in very difficult circumstances.

I think this will work against them because people will lose sympathy and respect for them. The junior doctors' spokesperson admitted on Jeremy Vine that he had said he was "excited" about the coming strike. That will infuriate many people

The turnout for the BMA vote was just 55% with a majority voting for strike action. Morale is very low amongst the doctors who are earlier in their career because of the difficulty of getting the training places they need to continue. It really is an appalling situation with a backlog of residents doctors stuck without a foundation level job or a specialist training position. I suspect if this was sorted out doctors would be less militant.
Having had a daughter jumping through these hoops I've seen how stressful and miserable it can be. My daughter was driving 90 mins each way for a year on top of working 12 hour shifts and nights because she had the third year of her part one training cancelled . She could sometimes book a place to sleep at the hospital but there were constant interruptions and noise and she couldn't afford to rent a second home nearer to the hospital. She was exhausted, had no life outside work and started to seriously consider either moving abroad or having a career change. This was her life 6 years after qualifying. Fortunately she got a part 2 training post that suited her but she was still travelling an hour each way on the motorway for her first year, she can cycle to work this year so she's happy! She's no idea where she'll be next year as she's in a very big deanery!

The travelling to work for junior doctors does go with the territory though foxie48, certainly in Wales it does, anyway. To gain the experience in their specialty that they need, the doctors in training rotate between different hospitals, which are spread out over a region. In South Wales most live in Cardiff, which is the most central city, but travel very widely - there is not enough accommodation for them to live on site at the vast majority of hospitals, although they access an on call room for them to live night if they are first on. It’s not ideal, but it’s a part of their job that most accept, because it’s the same for all of them.

I agree regarding training places, I know two juniors who had to do locums for a year before getting into their chosen training roles - but there are still unpopular training roles, and some specialties struggle to recruit because people prefer to keep trying for the roles they really want.

It’s a great pity they have to strike to get their extra pay. They do have it tough, for sure. I watch my grandson with dark shadows under his eyes after the long shifts overnight and think they do deserve really good financial rewards. Hopefully they won’t strike here because they do get a smidgeon more. You’d think they could negotiate rather than put peoples’ lives at risk.

Casdon Of course my daughter does accept that but cancelling the third year of a part one placement when doctors are part way through it surely not the way to treat professionals? This is my point really, people become more militant if they feel they are not respected and cared for to some degree. Unfortunately, I don't think many resident doctors feel that and it leads to discontent. The situation regarding access to training places and the progression through those pathways is a great deal worse now for resident doctors than it was in the past because we don't prioritise UK doctors and we have increased the number of places to study medicine without increasing the funding for the post grad clinical training which creates a bottle neck. My daughter waited a year to get a part one specialist training post that was suitable, filled in with a temporary one year A&E contract, thought she was then sorted for three years (albeit moving around a big deanery as that's the way it works) only to find herself without a job in her third year. I'm not posting to get sympathy for my daughter I'm posting to try to get people, who are not familiar with how doctors are trained, to understand why resident doctors are fed up and increasingly militant. Private employers could not treat their staff like the NHS treats doctors but when there is only one employer to work for, they can get away with it. It is most definitely not all about money and my fear is that if doctors get a big pay rise but working conditions fail to improve there are some who will choose to improve the quality of their lives by working part time and that will create a bigger burden for the NHS.

The BMA has been around as a trade union for quite some time. I am beginning to think the ease with which doctors are willing to strike is a poor measure of their effectiveness.
Certainly the BMA is in danger of losing public support which is a pity.

valdavi

MayBee70

To be fair one of my doctors told me that many doctors have to take early retirement because of stress. Having said that, much as I supported the doctors last year and felt that a case could be made for the pay rise they had I’m angry with them this time given that everyone is struggling financially.

Me too. Supported them last year & that pay rise was essential. But it was a hefty one, way above inflation, & they must be relatively better off.
I would support gentle increases to re-adjust the many years where their wages fell further & further behind doctors abroad, and equivalent positions here that are irreplaceable until 5-9 years' training has been done.
What they're asking for in the current climate makes me angry. & more strikes will harm the government & Labour are their best chance of getting a fair wage for their worth.

I’m with you on this issue Valdavi

"I am beginning to think the ease with which doctors are willing to strike is a poor measure of their effectiveness."

Others might take the view that it's a measure of their poor morale and general disaffection with working in the NHS.

The BMA has been around since 1832 in one form or another…. If strikes are the last resort then they must reconsider their negotiating skills imo.

Ronib I have already said that I don't support the strike and like most on here, totally agree that they will not get the support that they used to get but the resident doctors do have some justified grievances which need to be addressed and festering grievances lead to militantancy. Earlier this month the government released a 10 year plan to improve the training of specialist doctors which recognises the difficulties that they experience but it's a long term plan that probably won't help many of the currently affected doctors so at least this current government is aware of the issues unlike the previous one!

lordslibrary.parliament.uk/competition-for-specialist-training-programmes-in-the-nhs-sector-views-and-the-governments-plans-for-resident-doctor-training

Casdon

The travelling to work for junior doctors does go with the territory though foxie48, certainly in Wales it does, anyway. To gain the experience in their specialty that they need, the doctors in training rotate between different hospitals, which are spread out over a region. In South Wales most live in Cardiff, which is the most central city, but travel very widely - there is not enough accommodation for them to live on site at the vast majority of hospitals, although they access an on call room for them to live night if they are first on. It’s not ideal, but it’s a part of their job that most accept, because it’s the same for all of them.

I agree regarding training places, I know two juniors who had to do locums for a year before getting into their chosen training roles - but there are still unpopular training roles, and some specialties struggle to recruit because people prefer to keep trying for the roles they really want.

Maybe it shouldn't go with the territory. Maybe more accommodation should be provided. Just because it has always been part of the job, it doesn't mean it should continue. I would rather like to think that my Doctor was making decisions about my diagnosis and treatment without being compromised by being overtired. In a private company, if you have to work any away from home, you would normally be able to stay in a hotel at the company's expense.

The placements in each hospital are normally for six months or a year, but as they are often by that point in their lives wanting to settle in their own home a lot of them opt to travel. Accommodation on site (which is like student accommodation standard in my experience) for the FP1s who want it is usually available, but most prefer to live in their own home, and use an on call room when they are working nights. That’s what I meant when I said travelling goes with the territory.

foxie48 that was really poor, cancelling your daughter’s placement part way through. I must admit I haven’t heard of that happening to anybody I know. I’m sure you’re right, that a lack of good training placements is one of the reasons young doctors work elsewhere. Sadly, gone are the days when any good young doctor was able to find a placement in a specialty they wanted to make their career.

In England under a Labour government, in August 2008 free or subsidised accommodation for 1st year doctors was phased out. Doctors were no longer expected to be on constant call. Was this really an improvement in conditions or not?

Ronib this was 17 years ago and for first year doctors, how is this relevant to the situation now? I'm really not sure what point you are making.

Imagine being on constant call and tell us what you think ronib. Would you like to do that?

I think I am struggling to understand how political interference/interventions continue to make for a struggling service. Presumably the BMA were involved with this change?

How does this impact on the current situation? Ronib I just don't get what your point is. Please explain. Surely political interference/interventions always impact a public service but 17 years is a very long time!