Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

foxie48 Mon 14-Jul-25 07
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ronib

foxie48 AI states that foreign doctors are paying off student debt if working here.

The UK and US have the highest level of student loans. I think you'll find that the countries that most foreign doctors come from have lower living costs (eg Indai, Pakistan, Romania, Nigeria etc) so if they have outstanding loans to repay the monthly amount is significantly lower than the average home student. Interestingly, Streeting is considering removing the interest on doctor's student loans provided they are working in the NHS. I think that is an excellent idea, especially as it's based on CPI not RPI.

ronib

Lawyer and bankers can work well in excess of 48 hours. A law degree takes 3 years plus is it one or two years extra and another two years to become fully qualified. Engineering too can be a long haul to full chartered status and modern living is highly dependent on engineers. It’s not that simple theworriedwell

Lawyers work hard and continue to develop skills but - comparing them with doctors is like comparing dogs n cats

Yes that’s true Iam64 but even cats and dogs learn to live with each other. I am hopeful that Wes Streeting is able to find some common ground for a resolution. There seems to be a lot wrong morally with the way the health system operates but I don’t see any appetite for real change.

Wouldn't it be helpful to define "foreign doctors" in the last two post. All countries will vary and "foreign" is not an homogeneous group.

Sorry, those posts were further back. My device had not updated. But the point is still the same.

What I mean by "foreign" is a doctor who is trained abroad but it may have been better to use the adjective International or Overseas. Currently about a third of doctors working in the NHS are from overseas and in 2022 over half of the doctors joining the NHS were international medical graduates.

Doctors’ student loans sound the highest but imagine the resentment among other professionals - including nurses and other healthcare professionals - if the entire amount is written off including the undergraduate years.

And what effect would this have on recruitment.

Everyone feels underpaid and undervalued. I don’t agree that junior doctors are the special case that they claim to be.

foxie48

What I mean by "foreign" is a doctor who is trained abroad but it may have been better to use the adjective International or Overseas. Currently about a third of doctors working in the NHS are from overseas and in 2022 over half of the doctors joining the NHS were international medical graduates.

Maybe that is because a lot of Doctors doing their medical degree come from abroad. Then after 5 years, the British doctors may find themselves without a job because the lottery system means that places are allocated based on a number rather than being the best, residency or anything else as it is all anonymous. What a way to run a railroad!

Foreign means not from this country, surely ie a from overseas or from abroad?
The meanings are synonymous.

winterwhite

Doctors’ student loans sound the highest but imagine the resentment among other professionals - including nurses and other healthcare professionals - if the entire amount is written off including the undergraduate years.

And what effect would this have on recruitment.

Everyone feels underpaid and undervalued. I don’t agree that junior doctors are the special case that they claim to be.

I don't think there's any intention to wipe the debt, it's about not adding interest tbh surely it's only doctors who do five years training and then have to work for the NHS to further their training? Dentists can go into private work as soon as they qualify. Currently, interest is charged at CPI not RPI perhaps worth changing that?

winterwhite

Doctors’ student loans sound the highest but imagine the resentment among other professionals - including nurses and other healthcare professionals - if the entire amount is written off including the undergraduate years.

And what effect would this have on recruitment.

Everyone feels underpaid and undervalued. I don’t agree that junior doctors are the special case that they claim to be.

They might be the highest, but it's not necessarily true that they pay back the most. The real killer with student loans is the cumulative interest rate, which increases with loans which take longer to repay. Repayment of loans is linked to income, so it could be that doctors pay their loans back more quickly than average graduates. In that case, their loans are costing doctors less.

foxie48

winterwhite

Doctors’ student loans sound the highest but imagine the resentment among other professionals - including nurses and other healthcare professionals - if the entire amount is written off including the undergraduate years.

And what effect would this have on recruitment.

Everyone feels underpaid and undervalued. I don’t agree that junior doctors are the special case that they claim to be.

I don't think there's any intention to wipe the debt, it's about not adding interest tbh surely it's only doctors who do five years training and then have to work for the NHS to further their training? Dentists can go into private work as soon as they qualify. Currently, interest is charged at CPI not RPI perhaps worth changing that?

I think the interest rates should be adjusted for all graduates, but that won't happen because the loans have been privatised and the interest rates are how the owners of the debt are making their money.

I've just seen that removing the interest payments would be linked to working for the NHS, which isn't such a bad idea. Effectively, it becomes a top for NHS doctors, which is positive.

Just had the best hospital experience with my 2 year old granddaughter…. As usual gp complete don’t bother us, 111 exemplary….. and A&E great!!

Actually, my son has to pay a certain level of interest (7.6%) until his wages are over £40,000, a decent wage but not a king's ransom. Once he earns more, he is charged 3% more interest than students on £39,999. So, if a Dr earns more, they will also pay the higher interest and will be unable to pay their loans quicker without taking a big hit on their wages. So, not only does their training last longer than the average student but they are hit with higher interest rates on that extra money. Furthermore, although you pay your interest monthly for the whole year, the amounts are not credited until the end of the financial year. However the interest is calculated and added to the loan monthly. Personally, I think the whole scheme is immoral and not a level playing field at all for any student.

The point is, icanhandthemback, that graduates who pay back their loans more quickly end up paying less in total.

I agree with your last sentence.

Incidentally, where do you get those figures from? I know the schemes have changed over the years, but I can't see any scheme which tallies with the figures you've given.

www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay

ronib

foxie48 AI states that foreign doctors are paying off student debt if working here.

Yes just like British trained doctors are still paying off student debt if they go abroad to work. Debt doesn't get written off because you relocate

winterwhite

Doctors’ student loans sound the highest but imagine the resentment among other professionals - including nurses and other healthcare professionals - if the entire amount is written off including the undergraduate years.

And what effect would this have on recruitment.

Everyone feels underpaid and undervalued. I don’t agree that junior doctors are the special case that they claim to be.

One of mine is a nurse, they got a bursary. Don't know if that applies to other HCP. At the end of 3 years they were recruited to private sector. Still out earning friends who did medicine. Got their masters paid for and time off to do it. Don't think they are wasting time worrying about other people's loans.

Waiving the student loan for doctors working for NHS would encourage UK students to train as doctors but you would have to extend it to nurses as well.

I think it’s a good positive step and shouldnt be dismissed we need more UK medics.

growstuff

www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay

My son's student loan gives me some of the information and a Google search. You have to ask specific questions to get the answers for when things are charged and credited although I knew that from my first born's student loan but I just wanted to check it was the same with Plan 2, the last son's loan.

theworriedwell. That's interesting. One of my GCs is a teacher. 3 yr degree, then 2 yrs training on the job with Teach First which is a tough course, low pay, miles from home, then a year as 'newly qualified' in different job before on proper pay scale. Her parents currently paying off student loan. I think those in her and similar shoes would be justified in feeling irked if their university contemporaries doing medicine had their undergraduate loans written off.
Same sort of thing prob applies to lawyers as well.