Resident (Junior) Doctors vote to strike

Not all doctors are with the BMA.

Do they have to strike in that case? Or just BMA membership?

Only Resident Doctors have been asked to strike by the BMA.

Resident doctors are all doctors in training grades, so in the old terminology, include house officers, senior house officers, registrars and senior registrars. This is the majority of hospital doctors below consultant level. About 80% are in the BMA according to the BMA press - that doesn’t mean that they will all choose to strike.

Ah.
I suppose the ballot has to show a majority in favour too.

To be honest I think the general public think they are pushing their luck after last year’s settlement with Labour.

“Back to work” …. ? With no strings attached? Seems naive at best. 🤔

A good post, foxie48.

F1's and F2's are also expected to manage Physician Associates (PA) so it starts from the beginning of their professional journey. If the PA make a mistake, the buck stops with the F1 and F2.

I can’t find any information about F1 and F2 supervision- consultants, gps and SAS doctors supervise with appropriate medical insurance in place.

Good post foxie48

I remain conflicted. I accept their pay has fallen behind. The same with others in public service.

I don’t see it as a positive to .oxe our doctors to Australia or Dubai, or to poach doctors from the Phillipenes, for eg.

ronib

I can’t find any information about F1 and F2 supervision- consultants, gps and SAS doctors supervise with appropriate medical insurance in place.

I only know from someone who works in the NHS.

It costs a lot to train a doctor, they should give back to this country for a minimum of 10 years before going private or working abroad.
As for striking, disgraceful.

Allsorts

It costs a lot to train a doctor, they should give back to this country for a minimum of 10 years before going private or working abroad.
As for striking, disgraceful.

The young doctors want to work in the UK, but training posts are going to doctors from overseas. As I said earlier in the thread, this is because the UK is the only country in the world that does not prioritise its own graduate doctors. New medical schools are opening, so the situation is likely to get worse.

But they know what they sign up for when training, they know what the wages are and in a way it's an apprentiship with the big money coming at the end when qualified. They are not worth what they ae asking for. Not until qualified. They should get back to work and learn how to put the patients first.

They are ‘qualified’. Your post suggests they’re some kind of apprentices. Other countries like Australia wouldn’t be offering £50,000 welcome handshakes alongwith much larger salaries to unqualified doctors

Earthmother9

But they know what they sign up for when training, they know what the wages are and in a way it's an apprentiship with the big money coming at the end when qualified. They are not worth what they ae asking for. Not until qualified. They should get back to work and learn how to put the patients first.

They've already done 5 years training and clinical practice before they start working full time so they are already qualified. By the time they are F1's they are doing rotations to see what they want to specialise in. Yes, they are still learning but so is anyone taking on different roles. If you were on a graduate programme, the chances are you'd have been earning at least £30k for the 2 years after a 3 year degree. That makes £60k before a medical graduate can start earning. It hardly seems a lot to ask to pay a reasonable wage to the Dr's on that basis.

More likely that a four year masters is needed for graduate program employment so the difference is £30k in lost earnings according to your argument icanhandthemback. I was struck by a conversation with an engineering graduate who was truly grateful for the learning opportunities and further training he had been given on his graduate training scheme. Also he seemed to realise that there was so much more that he needed to learn even after his masters. Medics take note.

Doctors are effectively bound to the NHS until they are consultants and that takes about 10 years sometimes longer. If they work abroad most countries prioritise their home grown doctors so they are back of the queue but the additional pay and better conditions can make up for it. If we tie our resident doctors into working for the NHS, how ethical would it be to then employ doctors trained abroad?
I spent yet another night in A&E this week, my assessment of ethnicity based on many years working in a diverse population was that a very high percentage of the staff ( including doctors) were that they were probably born overseas. Overseas doctors are effectively better paid because they are not paying back student loans which can be a bit chunk of pay, add to that the professional fees, indemnity insurance and ongoing costs for exams which often are in London or another major city and it all adds up. At least doctors repay their student loans which many don't.

Iam64

They are ‘qualified’. Your post suggests they’re some kind of apprentices. Other countries like Australia wouldn’t be offering £50,000 welcome handshakes alongwith much larger salaries to unqualified doctors

But not of course the platinum pension schemes Iam.

Of all the medical students that I see for exams the majority are not British. I suppose the university relies heavily on foreign students paying the exorbitant foreign national fees. Thus there will be fewer UK doctors in the end. Workforce planning needs to gear up starting at first year uni entrance to medical school. If the govt has to pay more to unis for UK students then so be it.

ronib

More likely that a four year masters is needed for graduate program employment so the difference is £30k in lost earnings according to your argument icanhandthemback. I was struck by a conversation with an engineering graduate who was truly grateful for the learning opportunities and further training he had been given on his graduate training scheme. Also he seemed to realise that there was so much more that he needed to learn even after his masters. Medics take note.

Even so, £30k is a lot of money. Also, lots of graduates who enter a Programme have done a sandwich degree where they have earned money for up to a year so don't need the Masters Degree because they have experience.
Do you really think that Medics don't realise they have much to learn after their first 5 years? Why shouldn't they get a decent wage whilst they add to their knowledge just like a graduate. I know my son's wages have risen significantly in the 2 years he has been in that position and will continue to do so. He will also have far more chance of promotions over the next 10 years, more so than his Dr girlfriend.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Iam64

They are ‘qualified’. Your post suggests they’re some kind of apprentices. Other countries like Australia wouldn’t be offering £50,000 welcome handshakes alongwith much larger salaries to unqualified doctors

But not of course the platinum pension schemes Iam.

There is no platinum pension scheme for new starters in the NHS these days FriedGreenTomatoes2, it’s not better than the pension schemes in Australia either. As there is no state pension equivalent unless you are on your uppers there, the company and NHS equivalent pension schemes are good, and most people do seek professional advice, and save for retirement.

icanhandthemback well I guess it’s all a question of expectation not forgetting that the NHS is publicly funded unlike your son’s job I imagine. I don’t think that the starting salary for F1 and F2 is that bad. I hope your son’s girlfriend is able to continue her medical career should she start a family!

icanhandthemback

ronib

More likely that a four year masters is needed for graduate program employment so the difference is £30k in lost earnings according to your argument icanhandthemback. I was struck by a conversation with an engineering graduate who was truly grateful for the learning opportunities and further training he had been given on his graduate training scheme. Also he seemed to realise that there was so much more that he needed to learn even after his masters. Medics take note.

Even so, £30k is a lot of money. Also, lots of graduates who enter a Programme have done a sandwich degree where they have earned money for up to a year so don't need the Masters Degree because they have experience.
Do you really think that Medics don't realise they have much to learn after their first 5 years? Why shouldn't they get a decent wage whilst they add to their knowledge just like a graduate. I know my son's wages have risen significantly in the 2 years he has been in that position and will continue to do so. He will also have far more chance of promotions over the next 10 years, more so than his Dr girlfriend.

Well said.

Carson is correct about nhs pensions. The same applies for other public servants. Lower wages and poorer pensions will lead to an exodus. Many will go to agencies with much higher salaries and the ability to refuse, or walk out if they don’t like the pressure.

ronib

icanhandthemback well I guess it’s all a question of expectation not forgetting that the NHS is publicly funded unlike your son’s job I imagine. I don’t think that the starting salary for F1 and F2 is that bad. I hope your son’s girlfriend is able to continue her medical career should she start a family!

Yes, she will, just like her medical professional parents before her. 🤔

Here they are!

icanhandthemback

ronib

icanhandthemback well I guess it’s all a question of expectation not forgetting that the NHS is publicly funded unlike your son’s job I imagine. I don’t think that the starting salary for F1 and F2 is that bad. I hope your son’s girlfriend is able to continue her medical career should she start a family!

Yes, she will, just like her medical professional parents before her. 🤔

ronib, you seem to be going back to the dark ages when women who had children had to resign from employment. Surely yiu aren’t suggesting it’s a waste of money to train female professionals because they may have children? My female GPs all had children at the same time I did, we all returned to work after maternity leave
Same applied to teachers, lawyers, architects and more

Iam64no of course not. However a successful working career as a gp with 3 children doesn’t always work out for everyone. Interesting to see that female medics of a menopausal age do sometimes resign according to AI. In fact I seem to know more doctors leaving the profession than staying the course…..