Do the Labour Party have Communist policies?

PoliticsNerd

The trouble with democracy is it's not easy David. That's exactly why extremes can seem attractive.

Xi's life could easily be forfitted but that would be the same for a dictator. I don't think he is just a figurehead; he does seem to have personal power. I think this may just be how Communism works. Thankfully we (so far) don't have too many examples to judge it by.

Ultimate power, in most societies, rests with those who control the forces of coercion. While the ruler, or rulers, have control of the armed forces they able to stay in power.

David49

The only successful communist state is China, which is little more than state controlled capitalism, where you can become a billionaire as long as you follow party policy. Dissent by the workers is not allowed and there are party agents in every town and street to make sure they are obedient.

So

It isn’t a communist state is it?

Maizie I do wish that didn't sound so true.

Tony Benn was always viewed as extreme far left,

He bequeathed several million pounds , his London house and his country estate to his family

Was he a champagne socialist?

PoliticsNerd

Maizie I do wish that didn't sound so true.

You do wish 'what' wouldn't sound so true? Power rests in control of the means of coercion (armed forces)

It is true. First thing we learned in politics /sociology when I did my degree.

Have a look at countries ancient and modern and disprove it

MaizieD

PoliticsNerd

The trouble with democracy is it's not easy David. That's exactly why extremes can seem attractive.

Xi's life could easily be forfitted but that would be the same for a dictator. I don't think he is just a figurehead; he does seem to have personal power. I think this may just be how Communism works. Thankfully we (so far) don't have too many examples to judge it by.

Ultimate power, in most societies, rests with those who control the forces of coercion. While the ruler, or rulers, have control of the armed forces they able to stay in power.

The Chinese government control the army, through them them population, they also direct the economic policy, subsidies and rewards the companies that follow the direction.
Using cheap labour AND the latest technology they can undercut the prices of any western product, cars, electronics, solar panels and a whole range of other consumer goods.

What the US decides to do is not really much importance to them they have all the rest of the world dangling on a string.

David49

The only successful communist state is China, which is little more than state controlled capitalism, where you can become a billionaire as long as you follow party policy. Dissent by the workers is not allowed and there are party agents in every town and street to make sure they are obedient.

Not so good if you're Uyghur or another minority.

Allira

David49

The only successful communist state is China, which is little more than state controlled capitalism, where you can become a billionaire as long as you follow party policy. Dissent by the workers is not allowed and there are party agents in every town and street to make sure they are obedient.

Not so good if you're Uyghur or another minority.

Chinese don’t recognize individual rights, all of us that buy Chinese goods support that policy. We have sanctions against Russia and Iran, cso they sell more to China negating the sanctions.
We don’t stand up for our democratic principles because it would increase the cost of living.

Galaxy

So the right, certainly if you look at the podcasts that have emerged tend to explore the issues more at the moment, and some attempt to have views from both sides.
I don't think Corbyn is a communist, I think he has become a vessel for whatever is the idealist cause of the day.

Spot on.

yes and also rubbish. All my friends who grew up in communist countries owned their houses and the land on it to this very day. All their parents had various salaries not the same.

David49

Allira

David49

The only successful communist state is China, which is little more than state controlled capitalism, where you can become a billionaire as long as you follow party policy. Dissent by the workers is not allowed and there are party agents in every town and street to make sure they are obedient.

Not so good if you're Uyghur or another minority.

Chinese don’t recognize individual rights, all of us that buy Chinese goods support that policy. We have sanctions against Russia and Iran, cso they sell more to China negating the sanctions.
We don’t stand up for our democratic principles because it would increase the cost of living.

If China is a true successful communist state, how come so many citizens have become billionaires?

All people are equal but some people are more equal than others.

Elegran

Caleo

If "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need," defines a 'communist' then I am a communist .

I call myself socialist , not communist, because Marx's famous slogan is never going to be absolutely actualised due to human greed.

These basic tenets of Communism are in fact very near to the basic tenets of Christianity (or any of the caring religions) but in both they are in danger of being altered as people get more and more attached to all the other baggage that accrues in the process of turning them into the rules and legislation of running a whole nation or society. The need to control the baser urges of the population sabotages the high pronciples of the theorists.

Yes, it is akin to organised religions. I felt that at home - a strict Communist family, firmly declared as atheist and humanist, was - in fact - like being brought up by any strong religious background!

Milsa

yes and also rubbish. All my friends who grew up in communist countries owned their houses and the land on it to this very day. All their parents had various salaries not the same.

This is not true. Property in Russia except for the very rich was rented out, always, until the system begun to break down:

and when it did, it is as you described:

but not during the long period from 2017 to Mikhail Gorbachev. However of course there were variations from country to country - the more liberal communist countries had begun to set up small businesses, become house owners etc etc.

Wyllow3

Milsa

yes and also rubbish. All my friends who grew up in communist countries owned their houses and the land on it to this very day. All their parents had various salaries not the same.

This is not true. Property in Russia except for the very rich was rented out, always, until the system begun to break down:

and when it did, it is as you described:

but not during the long period from 2017 to Mikhail Gorbachev. However of course there were variations from country to country - the more liberal communist countries had begun to set up small businesses, become house owners etc etc.

The Soviet Union was not the only communist state.

Our relatives in the then-Yugoslavia owned their own properties.

Allira

Grantanow

History shows that true Communism is never achieved but is hijacked by a despotic ruling elite: Stalin, for example.

And elite they were with their dachas, while millions of peasants starved. Landowners were disposed of in one way or another, doctors were murdered.

It sounds idealistic in theory but is brutalist and elitist in practice.

Yes, it was a terrible, terrible extreme, no doubts on that at all:

But Stalin also basically was the one who defeated Hitler, at great cost to his people, who were not all by any means "forced" to do this.

(Russians had always hated Germany and the Prussians, and favoured the French)

Yet it is likely that the defeat of Hitler turned WW2 around as Hitlers poor soldier perished in the bitter Russian winter

(Napoleon of course made the same mistake)

However, Nikita Khrushchev came to power in the Soviet Union following the death of Joseph Stalin in March 1953. (Thankfully!!!)

Khrushchev - as carefully as was undoubtedly necessary - totally changed the emphasis of direction of the country:

And condemned and opened the Gulags and many other reforms

(But still invaded Hungary in 1956).

Whitewavemark2

David49

The only successful communist state is China, which is little more than state controlled capitalism, where you can become a billionaire as long as you follow party policy. Dissent by the workers is not allowed and there are party agents in every town and street to make sure they are obedient.

So

It isn’t a communist state is it?

👏

But Stalin also basically was the one who defeated Hitler, at great cost to his people, who were not all by any means "forced" to do this.

Oh yes, they were our Allies, of course, but they had their own agenda and caused so much suffering themselves at the end of WW2 and terror afterwards.

It doesnt matter what you call China, communist or a dictatorship, the effect is the same, it’s a command economy the government controls everything and everybody. Those that help the policy are given privileges, those that speak out against it are sent to re-education camp

Are you sure about the command economy in China, David?

There was a big problem with property building a few years ago? Far too much unneeded development which was left empty? The development was done by private enterprise, not commanded by the state. (Though AI tells me that the state has largely renationalised property.)

That was to keep the economy afloat.

I would describe China as a dictatorship of a mixed economy or market economy with the balance in favour of socialism,

Allira

^But Stalin also basically was the one who defeated Hitler, at great cost to his people, who were not all by any means "forced" to do this.^

Oh yes, they were our Allies, of course, but they had their own agenda and caused so much suffering themselves at the end of WW2 and terror afterwards.

We had our agenda too however, Allira. after all we had done in the war we didn't not give them one penny, not one penny, for huge mile after mile on mile of scorched earth and starving ordinary Russians:

And McCarthy and friends - set out on a terrifying witch hunt for "Communist" in culture and politics

(for those who dont know, McCarthyism - please - check it out: as it is quite appalling
www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=McCarthyism%3A&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

"McCarthyism refers to the period in the United States during the late 1940s and 1950s characterised by intense anti-communist suspicion and accusations, often made without proper evidence.
It is named after Senator Joseph McCarthy, who spearheaded numerous investigations and public accusations of communist infiltration in the government and other institutions

Possibly the most heinous act of all was to serve the death penalty on Ethel Rosenberg, wife of Julius Rosenberg

Julius was complicit in sharing scientific knowledge with the Russians on the basis of a safer world if both sides were equipped nuclear wise - (UK scientists did the same)

But Ethel Rosenberg, although sympathetic, had no part in this - Julius protected his wife by revealing very little to her: and although there was a world wide campaign - a cause celebre..
she was put to death with her husband. (My parents were active in the UK campaign)

And oh so ironic - the Rosenbergs of course were Jewish, and had fled Hitlers Germany [anger]

So please -maybe reconsider just how "benign" the US especially was to a nation who had suffered to bring us peace

I visited Cuba in 2015 when the restrictions were being lifted and was impressed with their approach to care in the community. Magnificent education and health care with no waiting lists.

Our guide, a graduate, offered to answer any questions (many tough ones) and some of her answers wouldn’t be acceptable in our Labour run country.

People are not allowed to decline work, everyone will be found a job within their capabilities- so no mental health issues, no bad backs will preclude you from doing something to support the system. They find a job that you can do and if you refuse to do it you get no benefit.

Communism eh?

Allira

^But Stalin also basically was the one who defeated Hitler, at great cost to his people, who were not all by any means "forced" to do this.^

Oh yes, they were our Allies, of course, but they had their own agenda and caused so much suffering themselves at the end of WW2 and terror afterwards.

Let’s be clear on this, if Britain and the US hadnt destroyed the arms production capability of Germany and supplied Russia with large quantities of armaments, Russia could not have defeated Germany on its own.
We all acknowledge the massive loss of life in Russia, but the turning point was Pearl Harbour when the US geared up for war production. The other major event was the Battle of Britain, without Britain being available to bomb Germany and launch DDay the liberation of Europe would probably not have not been possible.

Pantglas2

I visited Cuba in 2015 when the restrictions were being lifted and was impressed with their approach to care in the community. Magnificent education and health care with no waiting lists.

Our guide, a graduate, offered to answer any questions (many tough ones) and some of her answers wouldn’t be acceptable in our Labour run country.

People are not allowed to decline work, everyone will be found a job within their capabilities- so no mental health issues, no bad backs will preclude you from doing something to support the system. They find a job that you can do and if you refuse to do it you get no benefit.

Communism eh?

I did not believe this so I asked google a very specific question as follows:

Did people have to work if they had mental health problems in Cuba 2015

This is the short answer:

"In Cuba in 2015, individuals with mental health issues were generally expected to work or participate in activities, as part of their treatment and reintegration into society, but this was not mandatory if their condition severely impeded functioning.

Cuba's approach to mental healthcare emphasized a holistic and integrated model where therapy included occupational therapy and engagement in work or activities, with the goal of promoting recovery and social reintegration"

More very specific details follow if you wish to visit the site:

"https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Did+people+have+to+work+if+they+had+mental+health+problems+in+Cuba+2015&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

I would say that any given individual person you talked to may have a personal view affected by their own or family Mental Health Issues.

Individuals with Severe Mental Health problems when reporting on their treatment are likely not to give relabel information.

If you or a member of your family has or is experiencing psychosis, or denying they have MH problems, or deliberately misrepresenting what happens in the system since they can't perceive it in a more emotionally moderate way.

Its not unusual, for example, if you deny you are ill but exhibiting severe manic symptoms"

You may and indeed do "blame the system" - and your family not understand the system, so believe you.

Summary: overall you will not be refused benefit nor forced to work.

Every day's a school day etc.