Israel Committing War Crimes - Israel - Gaza Part 4

Devorgilla

I heard an interviewee last week give a very sane and common sense view of the situation. I didn't catch his name but I think he was ex military and used to operating in this type of field. His take on the supply of aid was that you need a surplus of military to control the crowds and enable a controlled allocation of aid so everyone received something. That is clearly not possible in this situation. I have yet to see an orderly queue for aid. He also said he believed that Hamas were likely to be acquiring some of the aid and squirrelling it away. People who were fortunate enough to get some of it, mostly fit young men, were likely to be attacked by gangs with guns for the aid. He said there was hunger in Gaza but it was likely to be the old, the disabled, the sick, the orphans, the widows etc who could not fend for themselves and for whom no-one was looking out. He ended by saying that in war situations like this the last people to starve would be the military and the fighters. They are always fed first because they are needed to fight. I think it is useful to consider in whose interests it is to keep the population hungry. Who benefits most in terms of international perception?

I think that’s a correct analysis of the situation.Not everyone in Gaza is going hungry that’s for sure and it will be those who most need help that don’t get it.Add to that the aid being taken and sold in the market by Gazans to Gazans.

Jeremy Bowen again saying that the Israelis seem to be doubling down on their illegal annexation plans, also, the UK's shift in stance is from putting 'benchmarks' on the Paletinians to know putting 'benchmarks' on the Israeli side, and that the Israelis are not best pleased.

Allira

^This thread isnt about whether Victoria Starmer has somehow "influenced" todays cabinet decision^

Threads meander; posters cannot control threads but if you want to get it back on track then trying to find out what is really happening and what are lies being perpetrated by Israel or Hamas might be helpful.

Yes, Lady Starmer must be finding the present situation difficult.
Why this new fashion of wheeling out wives? Is it productive?

Not really, Allira, when children are dying of malnutrition.
I think that the Starmers - whether we like/agree with them, are a close and loving team, but they have decided together that she isnt going to be some kind of "Second Lady', but carry on being an NHS occupational health worker. She trained as a solicitor by wanted to do caring work.

Certainly not wheeled out for anything but sometimes being seen together, and completely off track as regards the intentions of this thread

Which I understand to be discussions broadly around how we can resolve the absolutely appalling suffering of the now close to starvation on a large scale of the Gazan peoples in a realistic way, and the taking of their lands (because they have never been a "State"- some excuse)

And how we can go about doing just that whilst supporting Jewish people in Israel and world wide to be as free of anti semitism as is possible

How we can as individuals "make a difference".

However, as long as Netanyahu and his cabinet is in power, there is little chance of achieving either aim. This is why I like Starmers' "terms and conditions" approach.

As UK citizens, there is a legacy particular to us, for we were "in charge" of Palestine, which was a Protectorate under our much vaunted "Empire

Yes, we handed over a chunk of Palestine to one group of peoples as a State - without giving the remaining mostly Arab inhabitants the guarantee of Statehood or even some kind of defined and protected status.

Shame on us, it just makes it particularly needful and proper to try and repair matters with our actions now. However small what we do it - send emails, talk to people, attend demonstrations if we can and think it the right thing to do.

And it is heartening that many of our Uk Jewish citizens also join these protests.

Are Muslims feeling shame following the attack by Hamas on
7th October 2023.
The O/P refers to Israel and Hamas, no mention of Gaza

A lot of interesting comment this morning.

A long report from Jeremy Bowan, excerpts from which I’m pasting.

“At the UN David Lammy recalled how Arthur Balfour, his predecessor as foreign secretary had in 1917 signed a typewritten letter promising to 'view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.'

But the document, known as the Balfour Declaration, also stated "that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of non-Jewish communities in Palestine." It did not use the word Arab, but that is what was meant.

Lammy said Britain can be proud of the way it helped lay Israel's foundations, But the promise to Palestinians, Lammy said, was not kept, and that "is a historical injustice which continues to unfold."

Britain's conflicting promises fuelled and shaped the conflict. A time traveller going back a century to Palestine in the 1920s would find the tension and violence depressingly familiar.

The way the UK hopes to end the misery in Gaza, create peace in the Middle East and remedy the historical injustice Lammy described is to revive the two-state solution.“

I have thought for a very long time, thst our failure towards the Arabs was indeed an historical injustice, and clearly st the bottom of all the violence thst has taken place since the Balfour declaration.

We, I mean Britain, simply was not up to the job of separation and just like partition in India, we completely bungled it.

The answer simply must lie in diplomacy and compromise. A massive, massive hill to climb, but I am always with the peacemaker who would indeed be blessed if they can successfully find a solution that allowed both Israel and Palestine to live in security snd peace.

Balfour should never have tried to appease Zionists with his declaration, which he hoped to keep delaying ad infinitum. In the 1920s, there was still a mentality that the Middle East was a primitive country populated by people with brown faces on camels. It was easy enough to make promises and draw lines in the sand when sitting in Whitehall.

Once the promise had been made, the British couldn't dig themselves out of the hole. They did what they could to stop Zionists moving to Israel and then WW2 forced their hand. Now there was a moral imperative to create a safe country for European Jews. Meanwhile, WW2 also showed the British a glimpse of the future and the importance of Middle East oil, so they needed to appease the Arab states too. Not only that, but America had taken over as the most important global power and supported an Israeli state.

The situation was becoming tense, with British forces being killed by Jewish terrorists. The British tried to hand the problem to the UN, but the day they left, Ben Gurion declared the state of Israel, which the US and USSR recognised. About a quarter of a million Palestinians were displaced, even though they had done nothing to cause the Holocaust, and other Arab states declared war.

A lasting agreement should have been hammered out at the time, but I suspect European and American politicians were too preoccupied with the post-war problems in Europe and Germany, in particular. It wasn't just a British failure - it was a global failure. The world powers still didn't take Arabs seriously - hang-over from the colonial mentality.

The future is all that matters now. That's difficult because both sides have baggage and that won't be easily forgotten. I don't believe Netanyahu (and especially Ben Gvir and Smotrich) even want a solution. I don't think Hamas see a future either. Fatah is toothless and corrupt. Even if there is a peace, I'm pessimistic about who would lead Palestine.

Your last paragraph is so sad to read.

Not all is lost! I’m just listening to Katy Kay who says that it really is beginning to break through in the USA - members of Congress are beginning to get a lot of calls from their constituents, and are reacting.

Senator Kay - USA should suspend all aid to Israel as long as there are starving children.

Pressure

Trump certainly changed his language over the past few days, and finally recognising that Gaza is starving is a big step forward. I know that it has to be turned into action, and he doesn’t appear to have the level of sophistication needed to under what is needed. But I’m sure there will be people in Congress who do.

Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed

growstuff, I wonder who could lead Palestine or Israel. A genuine commitment to a two state solution, democracy in both states, no more illegal settlements and those built on land belonging to Palestinians demolished. A genuine desire to somehow move on from October 7 and the horrors inflicted on Gaza. Rebuilding there.
It’s a huge task but there must be hope

Anniebach, your post distressed me. I can only think you’re watching and reading different news than I am.

What must happen is for the visual images to appear night after night after night in the USA.

We already know that the younger demographic in USA are turning away from support of Israel, and towards the Palestinians. Israel has certainly noticed this which actually is reflected in their funding more centre of the democrats. This precedes Oct 7th, so I guess what is happening in Gaza has simply speeded this support up.

Iam64

growstuff, I wonder who could lead Palestine or Israel. A genuine commitment to a two state solution, democracy in both states, no more illegal settlements and those built on land belonging to Palestinians demolished. A genuine desire to somehow move on from October 7 and the horrors inflicted on Gaza. Rebuilding there.
It’s a huge task but there must be hope

Well, I never give up hope, but confess to not being optimistic.

Whitewavemark2

What must happen is for the visual images to appear night after night after night in the USA.

We already know that the younger demographic in USA are turning away from support of Israel, and towards the Palestinians. Israel has certainly noticed this which actually is reflected in their funding more centre of the democrats. This precedes Oct 7th, so I guess what is happening in Gaza has simply speeded this support up.

What I'd like is for people to turn towards humanity rather than taking sides.

Quote Iam64 Wed 30-Jul-25 08:06:12
Anniebach, your post distressed me. I can only think you’re watching and reading different news than I am.

Obviously. I haven’t seen what Hamas announces every day, you have Iam , I do not believe the Figures given from Hamas and have always said so.
The few photographs of the children is very distressing, I don’t
know what caused them to be so ill , how can a plump mother sit next to her dying child who we are told by Hamas is starving

Apparently Trump operates almost entirely on pictures. So whilst the data of the level of starvation will not budge him, largely because he doesn’t read it, the pictures of the children dead, dying and starving definitely do.

He is certainly affected by the pictures of the children , as is the entire world, and this is what will drive him towards a change of position and Israel.

At some level Netanyahu knows this, which is one reason it has been suggested that he is doing everything he can to suppress pictures of what is actually happening in Gaza.

I don’t personally think that is the only reason, but it does make sense.

growstuff, I’m another who doesn’t give up hope but I do feel despair for the future in Israel Palestine.

I absolutely agree with you. We need people to turn towards humanity, rather than take sides.

am64 Wed 30-Jul-25 08:16:46
growstuff, I’m another who doesn’t give up hope but I do feel despair for the future in Israel Palestine.

I absolutely agree with you. We need people to turn towards humanity, rather than take sides.

Taking sides ? believing or not believing Hamas ?

The future of Gaza is going to be difficult. Hopefully the people firstly need aid in many forms but there are now 7000 illegal Israeli settlers on land that was designated for Palestine.
It will take a lot of sorting out and Netanyahu is still intent on achieving his aim of ridding Gaza of all Palestinians.

growstuff and Whitewave, I clicked in earlier, on my phone, and was able to read your historical perspectives. Your research is much appreciated, and yes the future is all that matters now.

Anniebach

Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed

Anniebach , once again I wonder about what publications your read.
Who says Jews should feel ashamed?

Anniebach

am64 Wed 30-Jul-25 08:16:46
growstuff, I’m another who doesn’t give up hope but I do feel despair for the future in Israel Palestine.

I absolutely agree with you. We need people to turn towards humanity, rather than take sides.

Taking sides ? believing or not believing Hamas ?

Maybe you don't have any respect for humanity, but I do.

Caleo

Anniebach

Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed

Anniebach , once again I wonder about what publications your read.
Who says Jews should feel ashamed?

Actually Whitewavemark2 did.

Anniebach

Quote Iam64 Wed 30-Jul-25 08:06:12
Anniebach, your post distressed me. I can only think you’re watching and reading different news than I am.

Obviously. I haven’t seen what Hamas announces every day, you have Iam , I do not believe the Figures given from Hamas and have always said so.
The few photographs of the children is very distressing, I don’t
know what caused them to be so ill , how can a plump mother sit next to her dying child who we are told by Hamas is starving

Sorry, but this is just so vile.

Oreo Wed 30-Jul-25 10:05:36
Caleo
Anniebach
Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed
Anniebach , once again I wonder about what publications your read.
Who says Jews should feel ashamed?
Actually Whitewavemark2 did.

Perhaps only you and I read that post Oreo