Israel Committing War Crimes - Israel - Gaza Part 4

Quote Oreo Wed 30-Jul-25 10:09:09
Nowhere on this forum have I ever read that Muslims worldwide should be ashamed of the atrocities that hamas meted out in Israel.
And you know what? Quite rightly.It therefore follows that Jews have no need to feel ashamed either, but it was even said about Starmer’s wife.Unbelievable! And there’s no antisemitism?

I was shocked when I read that post , can we say Sadiq Khan
is ashamed of 7th October 2023 ? no conversations on these threads really

There are posters on this site like Iam64 who see two sides to a picture but very many who only ever see the Palestine one.
I feel very sorry for the people in Gaza, non hamas supporting ones naturally, particularly women and children who always suffer the most in any conflict.The aid should never have stopped and unfortunately the GHF were unable to handle the situation.The West Bank settlers should have been reined in.
It’s a right wing hawkish government which will likely change in the very next election.
Having said that, it was only ever have been the most difficult conflict you can imagine going after hamas.Almost impossible.
Over two hundred hostages taken yet quite a number now released and home again.
I really don’t think most posters understand the hurt and anger caused to Israelis by the massacre perpetrated on innocent families by the governing body and its supporters of Gaza that terrible day.

Caleo

Anniebach

Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed

Anniebach , once again I wonder about what publications your read.
Who says Jews should feel ashamed?

It depends if they support this genocide or not.

Do you feel the Germans who supported Hitler should have felt ashamed? I do.

Nowhere on this forum have I ever read that Muslims worldwide should be ashamed of the atrocities that hamas meted out in Israel.
And you know what? Quite rightly.It therefore follows that Jews have no need to feel ashamed either, but it was even said about Starmer’s wife.Unbelievable! And there’s no antisemitism?

Oreo Wed 30-Jul-25 10:05:36
Caleo
Anniebach
Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed
Anniebach , once again I wonder about what publications your read.
Who says Jews should feel ashamed?
Actually Whitewavemark2 did.

Perhaps only you and I read that post Oreo

Anniebach

Quote Iam64 Wed 30-Jul-25 08:06:12
Anniebach, your post distressed me. I can only think you’re watching and reading different news than I am.

Obviously. I haven’t seen what Hamas announces every day, you have Iam , I do not believe the Figures given from Hamas and have always said so.
The few photographs of the children is very distressing, I don’t
know what caused them to be so ill , how can a plump mother sit next to her dying child who we are told by Hamas is starving

Sorry, but this is just so vile.

Caleo

Anniebach

Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed

Anniebach , once again I wonder about what publications your read.
Who says Jews should feel ashamed?

Actually Whitewavemark2 did.

Anniebach

am64 Wed 30-Jul-25 08:16:46
growstuff, I’m another who doesn’t give up hope but I do feel despair for the future in Israel Palestine.

I absolutely agree with you. We need people to turn towards humanity, rather than take sides.

Taking sides ? believing or not believing Hamas ?

Maybe you don't have any respect for humanity, but I do.

Anniebach

Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed

Anniebach , once again I wonder about what publications your read.
Who says Jews should feel ashamed?

growstuff and Whitewave, I clicked in earlier, on my phone, and was able to read your historical perspectives. Your research is much appreciated, and yes the future is all that matters now.

The future of Gaza is going to be difficult. Hopefully the people firstly need aid in many forms but there are now 7000 illegal Israeli settlers on land that was designated for Palestine.
It will take a lot of sorting out and Netanyahu is still intent on achieving his aim of ridding Gaza of all Palestinians.

am64 Wed 30-Jul-25 08:16:46
growstuff, I’m another who doesn’t give up hope but I do feel despair for the future in Israel Palestine.

I absolutely agree with you. We need people to turn towards humanity, rather than take sides.

Taking sides ? believing or not believing Hamas ?

growstuff, I’m another who doesn’t give up hope but I do feel despair for the future in Israel Palestine.

I absolutely agree with you. We need people to turn towards humanity, rather than take sides.

Apparently Trump operates almost entirely on pictures. So whilst the data of the level of starvation will not budge him, largely because he doesn’t read it, the pictures of the children dead, dying and starving definitely do.

He is certainly affected by the pictures of the children , as is the entire world, and this is what will drive him towards a change of position and Israel.

At some level Netanyahu knows this, which is one reason it has been suggested that he is doing everything he can to suppress pictures of what is actually happening in Gaza.

I don’t personally think that is the only reason, but it does make sense.

Quote Iam64 Wed 30-Jul-25 08:06:12
Anniebach, your post distressed me. I can only think you’re watching and reading different news than I am.

Obviously. I haven’t seen what Hamas announces every day, you have Iam , I do not believe the Figures given from Hamas and have always said so.
The few photographs of the children is very distressing, I don’t
know what caused them to be so ill , how can a plump mother sit next to her dying child who we are told by Hamas is starving

Whitewavemark2

What must happen is for the visual images to appear night after night after night in the USA.

We already know that the younger demographic in USA are turning away from support of Israel, and towards the Palestinians. Israel has certainly noticed this which actually is reflected in their funding more centre of the democrats. This precedes Oct 7th, so I guess what is happening in Gaza has simply speeded this support up.

What I'd like is for people to turn towards humanity rather than taking sides.

Iam64

growstuff, I wonder who could lead Palestine or Israel. A genuine commitment to a two state solution, democracy in both states, no more illegal settlements and those built on land belonging to Palestinians demolished. A genuine desire to somehow move on from October 7 and the horrors inflicted on Gaza. Rebuilding there.
It’s a huge task but there must be hope

Well, I never give up hope, but confess to not being optimistic.

What must happen is for the visual images to appear night after night after night in the USA.

We already know that the younger demographic in USA are turning away from support of Israel, and towards the Palestinians. Israel has certainly noticed this which actually is reflected in their funding more centre of the democrats. This precedes Oct 7th, so I guess what is happening in Gaza has simply speeded this support up.

Anniebach, your post distressed me. I can only think you’re watching and reading different news than I am.

growstuff, I wonder who could lead Palestine or Israel. A genuine commitment to a two state solution, democracy in both states, no more illegal settlements and those built on land belonging to Palestinians demolished. A genuine desire to somehow move on from October 7 and the horrors inflicted on Gaza. Rebuilding there.
It’s a huge task but there must be hope

Hamas must be celebrating, every day since 7th October 2023
they have announced number of dead, children first. They have released photographs, recently of two children looking vey frail, one of the children with their mother a rather plump
lady. No adults looking frail .

Yet we read Jews should feel ashamed

Trump certainly changed his language over the past few days, and finally recognising that Gaza is starving is a big step forward. I know that it has to be turned into action, and he doesn’t appear to have the level of sophistication needed to under what is needed. But I’m sure there will be people in Congress who do.

Your last paragraph is so sad to read.

Not all is lost! I’m just listening to Katy Kay who says that it really is beginning to break through in the USA - members of Congress are beginning to get a lot of calls from their constituents, and are reacting.

Senator Kay - USA should suspend all aid to Israel as long as there are starving children.

Pressure

Balfour should never have tried to appease Zionists with his declaration, which he hoped to keep delaying ad infinitum. In the 1920s, there was still a mentality that the Middle East was a primitive country populated by people with brown faces on camels. It was easy enough to make promises and draw lines in the sand when sitting in Whitehall.

Once the promise had been made, the British couldn't dig themselves out of the hole. They did what they could to stop Zionists moving to Israel and then WW2 forced their hand. Now there was a moral imperative to create a safe country for European Jews. Meanwhile, WW2 also showed the British a glimpse of the future and the importance of Middle East oil, so they needed to appease the Arab states too. Not only that, but America had taken over as the most important global power and supported an Israeli state.

The situation was becoming tense, with British forces being killed by Jewish terrorists. The British tried to hand the problem to the UN, but the day they left, Ben Gurion declared the state of Israel, which the US and USSR recognised. About a quarter of a million Palestinians were displaced, even though they had done nothing to cause the Holocaust, and other Arab states declared war.

A lasting agreement should have been hammered out at the time, but I suspect European and American politicians were too preoccupied with the post-war problems in Europe and Germany, in particular. It wasn't just a British failure - it was a global failure. The world powers still didn't take Arabs seriously - hang-over from the colonial mentality.

The future is all that matters now. That's difficult because both sides have baggage and that won't be easily forgotten. I don't believe Netanyahu (and especially Ben Gvir and Smotrich) even want a solution. I don't think Hamas see a future either. Fatah is toothless and corrupt. Even if there is a peace, I'm pessimistic about who would lead Palestine.

A lot of interesting comment this morning.

A long report from Jeremy Bowan, excerpts from which I’m pasting.

“At the UN David Lammy recalled how Arthur Balfour, his predecessor as foreign secretary had in 1917 signed a typewritten letter promising to 'view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.'

But the document, known as the Balfour Declaration, also stated "that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of non-Jewish communities in Palestine." It did not use the word Arab, but that is what was meant.

Lammy said Britain can be proud of the way it helped lay Israel's foundations, But the promise to Palestinians, Lammy said, was not kept, and that "is a historical injustice which continues to unfold."

Britain's conflicting promises fuelled and shaped the conflict. A time traveller going back a century to Palestine in the 1920s would find the tension and violence depressingly familiar.

The way the UK hopes to end the misery in Gaza, create peace in the Middle East and remedy the historical injustice Lammy described is to revive the two-state solution.“

I have thought for a very long time, thst our failure towards the Arabs was indeed an historical injustice, and clearly st the bottom of all the violence thst has taken place since the Balfour declaration.

We, I mean Britain, simply was not up to the job of separation and just like partition in India, we completely bungled it.

The answer simply must lie in diplomacy and compromise. A massive, massive hill to climb, but I am always with the peacemaker who would indeed be blessed if they can successfully find a solution that allowed both Israel and Palestine to live in security snd peace.