So what do GNs think of Starmer’s decision to recognise Palestine as a state?

Anniebach

The government of Gaza was chosen in a general election

So let’s look at the principle of the “governments” of both sections of Palestine.

We are constantly hearing if the Israeli right to self determination.

So what does that mean? Well in my book it means determination of self, not of others. So I think that an individuals right to self determination does not give them to right to determine another’s destiny, or control another group.

At present Israel controls the entire territory from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean.

What it has done however, by allowing Palestinians to vote for a government, has in effect simply subcontracted out various functions to PA and Hamas.

However, the IDF can enter every inch of these territories, any time they want and arrest anyone they want. Including the elected officials.

Israel controls all access by land, sea and air.

Israel has in effect total control over 7 million Palestinians most of whom are not citizens of the state that controls them.

Ever since Britain took over in that area in the early 1920s and allowed Jews in there has been conflict.
When Israel was named a state in 1948 the Arab population called it the catastrophe and they have been fighting ever since.
What is happening now seems inevitable. One side will oust the other and Israel is stronger.
Th means by which they are doing this is horrific.

Read the wiki entry Annie, Israel has waged 15 wars in the Gaza Strip this is not the first though it is the worst. Helicopter gun ships and bombs have been used before.
Though perhaps the wiki entry isn’t a reliable source for you. I can understand that it doesn’t suit your narrative.

The number of Palestinians who support Hamas is unknown,
they voted for the Hamas government, fact. Very large crowds
of Palestinians mocked and cheered at Israeli hostages,fact.

Only 44% of Gazans voted for Hamas Anniebach

Anniebach

The number of Palestinians who support Hamas is unknown,
they voted for the Hamas government, fact. Very large crowds
of Palestinians mocked and cheered at Israeli hostages,fact.

Nobody here is a cheer leader for Hamas Annie so not sure why you keep saying the same thing.
We are concerned for a civilian population who are being massacred and starved. Whether they voted for Hamas is irrelevant they do not deserve to die like this and most importantly neither do their babies/children.
You seem to have problems differentiating between Hamas and innocent civilians.

Quote AGAA4 Tue 12-Aug-25 10:40:37
Only 44% of Gazans voted for Hamas Anniebach

Yes, and they formed a government, who knows if 44% has increased ? always a possibility it has

Anniebach

Quote AGAA4 Tue 12-Aug-25 10:40:37
Only 44% of Gazans voted for Hamas Anniebach

Yes, and they formed a government, who knows if 44% has increased ? always a possibility it has

The principle of self determination appears to have completely by -passed you.

When was the last election held in Gaza? The principle of democracy seems a bit adrift there.

ronib

When was the last election held in Gaza? The principle of democracy seems a bit adrift there.

When Hamas were voted in they were not committing bloodthirsty acts against Israelis and were promising Gazans good hospitals and schools, the usual spiel, and Netanyahu backed Hamas being elected so it would split Palestinians in Gaza from those on the West Bank, at that point he had no idea Hamas would do what they did on Oct 7th.
So blaming anyone who voted Hamas in is not an intelligent line to take.

Hang on we have elections here on a regular basis not every 18 to 20 years or so.

The elections - if they occur are only really for a sort of Local Authority.

There can be no election for their own government in the real sense if the word because it doesn’t exist.

Last election was 2006 in Gaza.

Hamas won the election them built tunnels under hospitals and schools , how did that benefit the Palestinians in Gaza ?

AGAA4

Last election was 2006 in Gaza.

Yes, but not for a government in the true sense of the word.

Throughout that time, no body in Gaza had control of any of its borders whether bordering Israel, Egypt, sea or air.

A blockade meant that Israel controlled everything that came out of or into Gaza. For example certain vegetable were not allowed out of Gaza.

Oh perhaps that explains the huge network of tunnels wwm2? Tunnelling to Egypt do we know?
What vegetable was a problem?

Anniebach

Hamas won the election them built tunnels under hospitals and schools , how did that benefit the Palestinians in Gaza ?

The tunnels were initially to bring much needed goods into Gaza because it is blockaded and so many goods could not be brought in.
We talk of a government but do not compare this to any other, at best it is an administrative authority, for Gaza is not a country, it has been compared to the biggest outdoor prison, with Gazans having suffered many deprivations over the decades. At best they would only get up to 2/3 hours electricity a day and a clean water supply was by no means a given. On top of this Gazans could only leave Gaza with Israeli approved documentation in order to work in Israel.
They aspired to be second class citizens.

What is a true Government in the true sense the word ?

Anniebach

What is a true Government in the true sense the word ?

Perhaps you would like to answer your own question, as I’m sure you know.

Babs03

Anniebach

Hamas won the election them built tunnels under hospitals and schools , how did that benefit the Palestinians in Gaza ?

The tunnels were initially to bring much needed goods into Gaza because it is blockaded and so many goods could not be brought in.
We talk of a government but do not compare this to any other, at best it is an administrative authority, for Gaza is not a country, it has been compared to the biggest outdoor prison, with Gazans having suffered many deprivations over the decades. At best they would only get up to 2/3 hours electricity a day and a clean water supply was by no means a given. On top of this Gazans could only leave Gaza with Israeli approved documentation in order to work in Israel.
They aspired to be second class citizens.

And something they have in common with us. Their sea of full of sewerage, because the electricity is not working

Anniebach

What is a true Government in the true sense the word ?

Oh for goodness sake.
That doesn’t even qualify as a question.
It is just another form of obfuscation.

Quote Babs03 Tue 12-Aug-25 12:25:35
Anniebach
What is a true Government in the true sense the word ?
Oh for goodness sake.
That doesn’t even qualify as a question.
It is just another form of obfuscation.

Next question, why speak of it ?

'Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East'. Not sure where this oft quoted myth came from, but in a democracy all citizens of a certain age may vote.

Babs03. I was going to respond about the tunnels but your post explained it.

Maremia

'Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East'. Not sure where this oft quoted myth came from, but in a democracy all citizens of a certain age may vote.

They can in Israel too, as far as I am aware.

Residents may not, nor in other countries either.

People may have permanent residency in Australia, for instance, but are not eligible to vote as they are not citizens.

Most countries restrict voting in national elections to their own citizens, but some allow foreign nationals to vote in local elections.
UK General Elections someone must:
be either a British citizen, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland