Will Trump really support Ukraine at meeting with Putin?

How about stop stealing Ukrainian children? That seems a good place to start.

ronib

We have only a glimpse of the situation in Ukraine. The West seems incapable of trying to see why Russia has gone along this path. I am not convinced that Ukraine has thought this through - this is a war they can’t win. They need to negotiate a ceasefire and deal rather than continue to kill their own people. What is the stumbling block? We’re not given this information in any clear sense.

Okay ronib, please explain exactly why you think Russia has gone down this path, and why you think ‘The West’ should accept Putin’s concept of what territory is ‘owned’ by Russia? That at last would provide a proper basis for discussing it.

The US does accept that Trump failed that’s not in question.

If Europe is so sure that nuclear escalation is a bluff they should arm Ukraine fully escalate the war and see what happens, even now Europe is far better placed to win such a confrontation, even without the US actively supporting.

My guess is we won’t, that’s Putins view. Also front line states like Poland and Baltic states will not be keen on the idea.

What on earth makes you think Poland wouldn't want Europe increasing Ukraine's ability to fight this invasion? Poland has recently increased it's defence budget to 4.7% of GDP , making it the biggest in the EU and the Baltic states are all in NATO now that Finland joined. They will not want Russia to defeat Ukraine then turn it's gaze on them.

David49

The US does accept that Trump failed that’s not in question.

If Europe is so sure that nuclear escalation is a bluff they should arm Ukraine fully escalate the war and see what happens, even now Europe is far better placed to win such a confrontation, even without the US actively supporting.

My guess is we won’t, that’s Putins view. Also front line states like Poland and Baltic states will not be keen on the idea.

They don’t need to.

USA and Europe has it within their power to bring Russia economically to its knees.

Of course arming ukraine to see out the war would be sensible , but the economy is what will bring him down, without so much bloodshed.

Casdon

ronib

We have only a glimpse of the situation in Ukraine. The West seems incapable of trying to see why Russia has gone along this path. I am not convinced that Ukraine has thought this through - this is a war they can’t win. They need to negotiate a ceasefire and deal rather than continue to kill their own people. What is the stumbling block? We’re not given this information in any clear sense.

Okay ronib, please explain exactly why you think Russia has gone down this path, and why you think ‘The West’ should accept Putin’s concept of what territory is ‘owned’ by Russia? That at last would provide a proper basis for discussing it.

Putin made it crystal clear that he wanted a neutral Ukraine all along, that’s why he annexed Crimea, Ukraine continued to ignore his concern so Putin invaded the Donbass region.

There is no point in us trying to reason the justification for that, it’s fact, the invasion has happened, Putin is not backing down on his wish for a neutral Ukraine.

Hundreds of billions have been wasted, hundreds of thousand lives lost gains for Ukraine look as far away as ever

Sir Keir Starmer’s statement in full.

Putin is watching Trump as one might watch a fly crawl up the wall. He has no intention of budging at all on his original demands. Read Orlando Figes' Story of Russia. Note Story, not History.

With all due respect David49, that is bullshit. I can’t believe you genuinely think a neutral Ukraine was ever the extent of Putin’s ambition.

So today we see Trump aligning with the psychopath, war criminal and murderer , by accepting Putin’s words which are utterly meaningless.

Casdon

With all due respect David49, that is bullshit. I can’t believe you genuinely think a neutral Ukraine was ever the extent of Putin’s ambition.

Putin won’t stop until all of Ukraine is within his grasp.

Whitewavemark2

David49

The US does accept that Trump failed that’s not in question.

If Europe is so sure that nuclear escalation is a bluff they should arm Ukraine fully escalate the war and see what happens, even now Europe is far better placed to win such a confrontation, even without the US actively supporting.

My guess is we won’t, that’s Putins view. Also front line states like Poland and Baltic states will not be keen on the idea.

They don’t need to.

USA and Europe has it within their power to bring Russia economically to its knees.

Of course arming ukraine to see out the war would be sensible , but the economy is what will bring him down, without so much bloodshed.

The uncertainty is China, oil sanctions on China are not going to be effective, they can if they wish sustain Russia for many years in the same way Europe sustains Ukraine.

As we have found in the trade tariff talks China can absorb a lot of pain without cracking, so can Russia because both have controlled populations that are not likely to rebel against official policy.

We know that there are a number of republicans who have a large package of sanctions ready to go, and apparently Trump does not have a veto over this (I am unclear if this is) so it could be put through congress next week.

Why not? The USA has to grab back some momentum it has lost as a result of Trump in Alaska. And to loose face to a small country -economically - like Russia takes some swallowing.

Just pondering on how those people who seemed to think we needed a leader like Trump feel about the fact that our PM seems to be pretty well respected on the world stage ( along with somehow maintaining a good relationship with Trump) given that Trump has imo made a complete fool of himself and his country?

Imo there should be no further talks until Putin calls a ceasefire.

Meantime I think that the only way to achieve peace is through strength.

We should give Ukraine the intelligence it needs, the arms it needs, the political support and the money.

At the very least ukraine should be level with Russia. Russia already looses 10 of its fighters to Ukraines 1. Ukraine knows how to win this, just give it the means and support.

Putin’s sword will not sleep in his hand until he has rebuilt the old Russian empire. That’s the reality.

{hmm} well KS maybe pretty well respected in the world stage MayBe but his statement following yesterday's embarrassing display by Trump with Putin elicits no respect from me.

IMO Trump not only made a complete fool of himself and his country but also of any leaders who are trying to sell yesterday's debacle as any kind of success, including KS.

I agree Smileless. Putin took the lead in the press meeting opening it with his speech when it should have been Trump. He also had to.mention that Alaska once belonged to Russia.
The parting quip about the next meeting being in Moscow (spoken in English) was quite telling too.
Putin had the upper hand making Trump look foolish.

Smileless2012

{hmm} well KS maybe pretty well respected in the world stage MayBe but his statement following yesterday's embarrassing display by Trump with Putin elicits no respect from me.

IMO Trump not only made a complete fool of himself and his country but also of any leaders who are trying to sell yesterday's debacle as any kind of success, including KS.

I’d like to know what you think the other options were for Starmer - condemn Trump, say nothing? He, and the other European leaders are between a rock and a hard place on this at the moment.

Starmer wont condemn Trump, the peace negotiations (or escalation) is now up to Europe, that is a very different proposition to sniping at others efforts.
It’s now up to Trump to criticize our efforts

He didn't have to condemn Trump or say nothing, he also didn't have to say that Trump's efforts have brought an end to the war even closer, because they haven't Casdon.

I don't agree that He and other European leaders are between a rock and a hard place, the only one in that unenviable position is Zelensky.

As David has said peace negotiations or not are now up to Europe. Trump has achieved nothing and I'm sure he will criticise Europe's efforts but isn't really in a position to do so having achieved nothing himself.

Trump's the one person who could do something by imposing the tariffs he's threatened too; the only problem is he's merely sabre rattling and has no intentions of doing so and Putin knows that, as do many of us.

Trump is not going to withdraw from the negotiations though, his credibility rests on him being the one who brokers a deal. I don’t think he has any intention of leaving it up to Europe, that would undermine his perception of the USA as the leading world power. Until there is no place left to go with USA/Russia negotiations, all the European leaders can do is at least outwardly, support him, and lobby.

I think he will make it look like Zelenskyy is rejecting something he has worked on.

I hope I'm wrong but fear he and Putin will go on blaming Ukraine.

Smileless2012

Trump's the one person who could do something by imposing the tariffs he's threatened too; the only problem is he's merely sabre rattling and has no intentions of doing so and Putin knows that, as do many of us.

Actually no, Trump has a plan to impose tariff on goods into the US from nations buying Russian oil. Do we or any other countries also have a similar plan to back up the US.

We don’t know yet if the US plan will go into action, probably a lot will depend on what Europe does next